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D&D 5E NPCs With Class Levels?

Should NPCs Have Class Levels?

  • Yes, as an optional form of advancement.

    Votes: 50 47.2%
  • Yes, as a general rule.

    Votes: 22 20.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 32 30.2%
  • Lemon Githzerai ("There cannot be two pies.")

    Votes: 2 1.9%

I get why people want the flexibility to build a monster or NPC without using the class rules. Or why they would want creation to be fast.

What I don't get is why anyone who wants that wouldn't want the same things for PC's.

Some have! There are a few DMs running with basically 4E companion characters instead of PCs. But, I think for most there is the understanding that a large portion of the player base wants to be able to truly customize their character, and for balance to be there between different PCs. My wizard should be built with common rules compared to yours, and choose from the same real options - not approximations. That is true in any edition. On the DM side, DMs are short and time. I loved some of the monsters 3E created, such as Sorceress Medusa half-devil, but I despised the work to create them or to read through the spell lists, spell-like abilities, feats, etc.

It does link to rules bloat (tons of feats, tons of spells), but it isn't just because of that. It has to do with the detail involved and what it takes to create a monster that truly functions like it is a particular class.
 

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I agree. However, it was a big deal (and is still) for some to have a spellcaster stat block provide full spell lists. Things would happen such as an enemy pre-casting buffs (Bull's Strength, Haste, etc.) or might cast those if PCs retreat. Or, the caster might escape and hunt them down later. There was the feeling for some that this accuracy also needed to be there - it had to be a real caster, not some approximation.

Have we moved beyond that? I don't think enough have to be able to say that the 3E system can be abandoned. I'm personally a big fan of the 4E system, but I hear enough wanting the 3E method for monsters to think we need something that speaks to it, perhaps as a module.

Yeah, its a mystery to me too. Frankly if I am going to make a persistent villain out of a monster, then I may well outline in my notes other things that said villain may be capable of. I don't really see the value in being restricted to using PC class rules to do that (nor do those rules even in 3.5 really cover more than a portion of what might be needed). By the time I've decided who the villain's contacts, minions, associates, master, etc are and what place he's got in the world I should have a pretty good idea of what resources he has. I just don't recall AD&D days calling said villain a 'level 7 Mage' being all that useful. In fact I mostly remember long spell book spell lists that never came into play... Eh, well, anyway. You're certainly right that there are some people who feel the need for absolute consistency.
 

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying. At least in my opinion you just assign stock numbers and a small number of powers and traits to a monster. There's no need for monsters to have feats, backgrounds, etc. All they need are the final numbers.
Sometimes, sure. If all you want is a monster that will be played for a few rounds.

But sometimes you want that with PCs too. If you're teaching a beginner, or playing a one-shot, or you're just a rules-lite kind of person, you probably don't want to pick a full sheet of different abilities, feats, backgrounds, etc. You want to make a couple of quick choices and play.

Conversely, sometimes as a DM you want a major NPC, DMPC, BBEG, or other well-developed stat block. And sometimes PCs want to play unusual things.

The point is that the amount of time one wants to spend creating a character is not solely or even primarily a function of whether or not that character is a PC or an NPC/monster. It has far more to do with what kind of game you're running and how much time you have and what you want out of that character. So why should the rules enforce an arbitrary distinction between PC and NPC? What is gained by doing that? Shouldn't they simply be designed so that you can create a basic character sketch quickly, and add detail if you want it, regardless of who you are?
 

Things would happen such as an enemy pre-casting buffs (Bull's Strength, Haste, etc.) or might cast those if PCs retreat.

I think that at least in some case the monster entry can include buffs already cast, if this can be easily presented in a non-confusing way, such as: HP 20 (+5 extra from Aid), attack bonus +2 (+3 with Bless) or an extra line under the special abilities. Keep in mind that almost certainly 5e won't even have buffs on ability scores or other spells the effect of which spreads to multiple stats, so it should be easy enough if those buffs are but a few. I would prefer to see both the buffed and unbuffed value, so the DM can choose if the NPC was indeed prepared or not (and because there's always Dispel Magic).
 

Sometimes, sure. If all you want is a monster that will be played for a few rounds.

But sometimes you want that with PCs too. If you're teaching a beginner, or playing a one-shot, or you're just a rules-lite kind of person, you probably don't want to pick a full sheet of different abilities, feats, backgrounds, etc. You want to make a couple of quick choices and play.

I don't consider the distinction to be arbitrary. PCs and NPCs exist for ENTIRELY different purposes. They don't EVER fulfill the same role in the game, thus there is IMHO no reason at all that they should follow the same rules from from first principles (in terms of how they work IN PLAY there are of course good reasons for their rules to be similar, though I would point out that games like Dungeon World take the concept to the extreme, DW monsters are NOTHING like PCs at all, not even in terms of basic mechanics).

Of course it is possible one can desire to have a simple PC. I would think that a simple class is appropriate. Clearly the 4e devs thought that was a good idea when the designed the Essentials Fighter classes (Slayer and Knight). I don't see how this has much bearing on monsters/NPCs though, because again, the purpose of an NPC is so fundamentally different from that of a PC that the mere happenstance of a simple PC class and a simple monster having similar complexity is not really relevant any more than a simple spell having complexity similar to a thief ability is relevant to anything.

Conversely, sometimes as a DM you want a major NPC, DMPC, BBEG, or other well-developed stat block. And sometimes PCs want to play unusual things.
OK, but again, what compels one to consider a PC stat block to be appropriate for an NPC, well-developed or not? What would make one believe that a 'class' intended to model a monstrous NPC be useful as a PC class?

The point is that the amount of time one wants to spend creating a character is not solely or even primarily a function of whether or not that character is a PC or an NPC/monster. It has far more to do with what kind of game you're running and how much time you have and what you want out of that character. So why should the rules enforce an arbitrary distinction between PC and NPC? What is gained by doing that? Shouldn't they simply be designed so that you can create a basic character sketch quickly, and add detail if you want it, regardless of who you are?

First of all I don't agree with your initial assertion here. DMs create MANY MANY more NPCs/Monsters than players create PCs over the course of play. I started a campaign last night and the PCs have already interacted with at least 20 NPCs and killed 8 monsters in one evening of play. This is typical. I will generally at least make note of a dozen or more NPCs each session and I may well provide stat blocks for ALL of them, though probably half is typical. Thus time is a major driving constraint when I build NPCs. OTOH I usually spend at least an hour making a new PC, sometimes more.

The distinction between a PC and an NPC is in no way shape or form arbitrary. In fact it is one of the most important distinctions, perhaps THE most important distinction, in all of RPing. It hard to even answer what is gained by using different rules for them. It is like asking what's to be gained by having different rules for the offense and the defense in American Football. The rules virtually MUST be different as the things themselves are of a wholly different nature.

NPCs are create, exist, and are often destroyed or removed from play quickly and regularly. They don't need to have mechanics that allow them to deal with any arbitrary situation, manage resources over an adventuring day, cooperate with other PCs in a team while filling a unique niche, etc. They in fact need to be able to present a credible and immediate threat, be easy to generate, easy to run, easy to customize and reflavor in arbitrary ways to meet the DM's needs, etc. These two sets of requirements are clearly very different and any assertion that an equivalence should be drawn should be approached with great skepticism. As a systems engineer I'd say that such a choice is a hasty generalization.

Now, all of this doesn't PRECLUDE commonalities of PCs and NPCs from being exploited. It just means that the similarities should be factored out into a common area of the rules. 4e for example does that quite well, almost all 'in play' rules simply deal with 'creatures' and 'characters' and 'friends' and 'enemies'. NPCs use the combat system exactly like PCs with a few very specific minor exceptions. They have attributes which work like PC attributes, and even skills and powers like PC skills and powers. Many other mechanical details are shared. However their generation systems ARE quite different, as befits their different purposes. In point of fact it is QUITE possible to make 4e PC-style NPCs if you WANT to do so, and you can even find in DMG1 a set of rules for making 'monster' type NPCs that use basic class mechanics from PC classes in a limited way (using class templates). This is further developed in DMG2's CC rules. Still, these are all fundamentally still stat blocks, not class based creatures.

Just to specifically address the point of "well rounded NPCs", those with a high degree of development. Again, I don't see that PC rules are particularly beneficial for them. Even these sorts of NPCs are created for a purpose. They may be recurring significant characters in the story, but its not necessary for the rules to govern their use and acquisition of powers and resources. The DM should be free to structure these villains and allies as he sees fit in order to play their parts effectively. In any case PC rules don't really help you do that very well. They are mainly focused on regulating the rate of acquisition of new capabilities, something of little use to NPCs. These rules also rarely provide much insight into the actual resources of a given character. For instance a 4e 'wizard' NPC might have a wide variety of ritual magic, unusual items, access to resources and allies a PC wouldn't have or need, etc. Many of these things in fact need not be specifically nailed down and defined. Who knows what sorts of odd powers a mad demonoligist might have for instance? No PC is going there! If threatened who knows what sorts of resources this NPC might muster up using his forbidden talents? Certainly to assume that the DM is going to think of every option, let alone that a class designed to limit the power of a player's character is going to have the appropriate mechanics for this seems unlikely. There is of course no reason not to be guided in what said NPC can do by examples of what PCs can do, but this should really be a mere starting point or reference.
 

The point is that the amount of time one wants to spend creating a character is not solely or even primarily a function of whether or not that character is a PC or an NPC/monster.
I mean, you can say that it's a function of how much screen time and attention they're getting, but I think that's splitting hairs.

If I had an NPC that had as much screen time as a PC and I was controlling them with my complete attention, then it would make sense to build them like a PC. I'm with you a 100% in that case. But that's certainly not what I expect to be doing as GM.

In my last three-hour session, which was basically all combat, I ran 22 enemies with 7 different stat blocks. The session before that, 15 enemies with 5 different stat blocks and 2 non-violent NPCs. Tonight I'm probably running 17 enemies with 4 stat blocks, 9 friendly NPCs with 6 having stat blocks, and some number of friendly red shirts.

In that time, each of my players is handling one stat block. I'll be handling seventeen (some of mine repeat between sessions too).

And you know what? Of those seventeen stat blocks, the least useful are the 6 friendly NPC stat blocks built using PC rules. I didn't even have to put in the work for them, just copy/paste from published sources, and they're less transparent and harder to run than if they were built without PC rules.

Which brings us to how many blocks we're using at once. My players are each running one character with one stat block. I ended up running fourteen characters with three blocks last time. If the PCs do their jobs well, I'll only end up using two blocks at a time tonight... otherwise, it could get messy.

Now, even pretending there's no overhead for running multiple characters and play doesn't speed up as people get used to their characters, I'm looking for running an NPC to be a third as complicated as the most complicated PC. Realistically, they need be far simpler than that.

I'd be perfectly happy with building monsters like PCs if PCs were so simple I could run a dozen at once. But that leaves my players, who're looking for a lot of options and customization, completely in the lurch.

Shouldn't they simply be designed so that you can create a basic character sketch quickly, and add detail if you want it, regardless of who you are?
If the baseline complexity for a PC is small enough that a DM could run a combat's worth at a time, you have a point.

I mean, back in 1st/2nd you could throw non-caster PCs in as enemies and not have it eat up time at the table. Even back then, though, any sort of caster built as a PC was a useless statblock.

So, in a world where every character concept can start as complex as a 2nd edition fighter and stay that way throughout the power scale, but also scale in complexity for people who like the fiddly bits, you're absolutely right.

Cheers!
Kinak
 


So, in a world where every character concept can start as complex as a 2nd edition fighter and stay that way throughout the power scale, but also scale in complexity for people who like the fiddly bits, you're absolutely right.
Yep, that's my ideal.
 



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