Nuclear weapons of D&D Rules

[Nebulous]

i've never used Disjunction as a DM ( or seen it as a player) but Sunder and Grapple are too wonky. The grapple rules take too long to untangle (pun intended) and sundering seems...weird. It has only come up once as DM when i was practicing with it to see what would happen.

I really want to like and use the grappling rules, because it is such a valid and common part of combat, but it's just not intuitive enough. And when you add in a monster with multiple attacks it just gets confusing.

 

[satori01]

I am always a bit dismayed when I read that people do not use the grapple rules. There are so many monsters with Improved Grab, so many good monsters, that to write them off as unusable is sad to me.

Grapple will slow your game down to a crawl the first couple of times you use it, but after awhile, everyone becomes proficient in how it works, and it proceeds quickly.

I understand why people do not use Mord's Disjunction and Sunder all that often. Magic Items are directly tied to character power, and often have a large emotional and storyline investment.

I am loath to destroy the +2 keen scimitar that a player has continually enchanted for over 2 years, when they picked it up as a masterwork scimitar.

 

[lukelightning]

I find that grapples aren't that difficult if you have the grapple modifier figured out. The wording does need to be clearer about how many grapples a monster gets and when constriction damage applies.

Sunder is more anti-player than anti-monster; players are loathe to use it because they are sundering potential loot, and a huge proportion of monsters they fight use natural weapons.

 

[iwatt]

I find that grapples aren't that difficult if you have the grapple modifier figured out. The wording does need to be clearer about how many grapples a monster gets and when constriction damage applies.

Very true. Cosntrict is really the bane of my existence. Grapple/Improved grapple happen enough in my games that we all have a good enough understanding of the rules (it's still a very long process though). But constrict appears just unfrequently enough that I forget how it works by the next time I have to use it.

Finally, at least Iron Heroes reworked the grapple rules enough that I now have a mechanic for tossing people around. The problem is that IH Pcs really have trouble against grapple beaties, since they don't have acces to magic. But that's food for another thread.

 

[the Jester]

We avoid nothing. I see grappling almost every session, and there was one disjunction (cast by the pcs) and the threat of another (threatened by a monster) just in our session last night! As to sundering, well, if a monster has Improved Sunder it only makes sense that they use it...

 

[Rackhir]

As the mage in the party, I have avoided the Poly Self/Other into some better form in Shilsen's campaign, simply because I find it annoying that as things were written pre-the recent changes that the hands down orders of magnitude most effective tactic was to spend all your time as something else. Since you could get enormous boosts to stats, ac and attacks. So Shil has avoided using this tactic against us as a courtesy and because we both agree its kind of cheezy.

 

[Kapture]

There are two conversations here: what's too mean to do to your characters, and what's too difficult to use at the table.

Grapple is a nifty ruleset, and I like that it feels real, but that column made me realize how much time I lost to it in my games. I mean, three levels of rolls for one action (touch attack, grapple, pin)? Sheesh. We use it, but I wish it were easier.

If find improved grapple easier to use: it's one roll in addition to an attack roll. If they make the roll, they do damage. Pretty easy if-than proposition.

So I'm thinking of streamlining grapple:

If you do not have improved grapple:

Grapple is a standard action.
As a standard action, you grapple with a chosen target.
If the grapple is successful, you pin the target and do damage.
Each round is an opposed grapple
Additional grappler is a helping check. More limbs than two counts as a helping check.
They must break the grapple before they can perform any other action. Breaking a grapple is a move action.
Grapple modifier stands as is: BAB, str bonus, modifier
If you are the Grappler, you can do nothing else but grapple, and move half your movement rate. If you are the grapplee, then you can only break a grapple or cast a spell if you succed on a concentration check. It doesn't matter what the components are.
Ending a grapple is a free action for the Grappler.
Entangle is a area effect grapple, pinning but doing no damage.
Black Tentacles is an area effect grapple, pinning and damaging.

See, entangle was another thing that came up as a pain in last nights game. Two different sets of rolls to resolve a single spell. Ack.

We use them, but they kill the fun of the game.

Other examples of nuclear rules are polymorph, which I think is an easy fix: the only thing you gain from a transformation is a natural weapon.

Polymorph should exist to change your appearance. All the stat changes and ability modifiers are, are magic freebies. If you want a character that doesn't just look like a troll, but is as strong as a troll, then why not use Bull's strength?

Sundering and Bull's strength I think are both pretty straightforward.

I like attacks of opportunity, but if I could figure it out, I would qualify them less.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Grapple...

The initial touch attack of the grapple seems overkill, if there were a convenient way to reduce the action to Opposed Check + Damage roll, it would be much easier to use.

But the way it is not is not so bad, if the would be grappler takes the time to note the required bonuses and penalties in advance. Unfortunately, with Grapple, that is alot of note taking.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[heirodule]

I was dissuaded from using craft wondrous item to make a cube of force. Very cheap for what it does, and makes encounters all about using the cube.

 

[Shade]

My group has routed around illusions. After our first few arguments over what exactly constitutes "interacting with" them, and then trying to avoid meta-gaming when only one player successfully disbelieved, we simply stopped using them without ever noticing they were gone.