OA - Iaijutsu Master broken?

[DonAdam]

One thing we've done for Iajitsu Focus, to help tone it down and make the characters more specialized, is make it subject to armor check penalty.
That separates clearly the armor-wearing battlefield specialists from the little-to-no-armor duelists.

 

[Apok]

Yes and No...

I'm pretty sure that's the way it was intended to work. Isn't sneak attack like that?

I think that is the way 1s2c was intended to work; the extra attack doesn't get the iajutsu damage. However, you are incorrect about sneak attack if I'm right about how you are perceiving it. Sneak attack damage applies to any and all attacks made when the conditions allowing for a sneak attack (target is denied Dex bonus to AC or is being flanked) occur. There are exceptions, of course (Uncanny Dodge and the Quickstrike feat come to mind).

 

[Bastoche]

One thing we've done for Iajitsu Focus, to help tone it down and make the characters more specialized, is make it subject to armor check penalty.
That separates clearly the armor-wearing battlefield specialists from the little-to-no-armor duelists.

I think that you can't use any of the iaijutsu master's ability while wearing an armor. Is that right ?

 

[Bastoche]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It is for dueling

Yes, that "one strike, two cuts" ability is indeed nifty.

This is an interesting question (and I have too much time on my hands) so I played around with some numbers. 1S2C is an 8th level ability for the Iaijutsu Master, so you'd need to be at least a 14th level character to get it. Let's see what bonus a 14th level IM could get for Iaijutsu Focus:

17 ranks
+5, 20 Charisma (naturally or from items)
+3, Skill Focus (using house rule that SF gives +3)
+4, sword of focus (OA weapon enchantment)
= +29 total bonus

So the absolute best this IM could get on an Iaijutsu Focus skill check is 49, if they rolled a natural 20. That translates to +8d6 damage. On average, they might get +6d6 or +7d6.

If they win init and hit both times, they do (1d10 + 6d6 + 6x5 + 1.5xStr) x 2 points of damage. That's roughly 60-70 points, doubled, or 120-140. Impressive! Considering the Iaijutsu Master will have 6d10+8d8+14xCon hit points, that could indeed be enough for an outright kill.

I think the Iaijutsu master's hit dice is d10 not d8. And they have reflexes saves instead of fort save, which makes them different from fighters.

To me, the iai master is just the oriental counterpart of S&F' duelists. I think it's a great class and it's balanced. To max out the iai master's abilities, you need high dex, high int and high cha. So any plain fighter or plain samurai with str and con will kick the IM's arses pretty hard. In our oriental campaign, the IM strikes first, alawys, but the singh rager (which is called Matsu rager in Rokugan BTW) is very much more powerful in combat.

And anybody who knows at least a little history about real life iai masters will find that this prestige class is great. It is by far my favorite PrC from a flavor/role-play point of view. It has it all. The true samurai spirit.

 

[mmadsen]

A grunt hoplite is a 1st level warrior or fighter with proficiency in longspear. Similarly, a grunt knight is a 1st level warrior or fighter in plate armour and riding a horse. However, a knight of the garter is not just a "knight", and Achilles is not just a "hoplite". Such characters occupy a privileged or unique place in their society, and can't really be compared to their lowlier peers.

Just what is a high-level Fighter if he's not a high-level Knight or high-level Hoplite, etc.? And do you really think every prestigious character needs a Prestige Class to be prestigious?

This is (one reason) why prestige classes exist: to make a campaign more "real". Players get more involved in a campaign if they feel they their characters are more than just another multiclass combo or grab-bag of feats; and if they feel the world has more depth to it than just barebones encounter tables.

I don't see how an artificial game mechanic like a Prestige Class automatically acheives deeper reality. A Knight of the Round Table doesn't have to have a Prestige Class called "Knight of the Round Table" to belong to an elite order and possess the skills of an elite knight. The mechanic adds nothing.

Therefore, for a campaign that features iaijutsu prominently, it only makes sense to have a PrC that revolves around iaijutsu duels. If you don't feel that iaijutsu fits with the tone of your campaign, you're free to disallow it.

I don't see how a Prestige Class that looks just like the Fighter but with quickdraw special abilities is any different from the Fighter class with a few new quickdraw Feats to choose from.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

I don't see how a Prestige Class that looks just like the Fighter but with quickdraw special abilities is any different from the Fighter class with a few new quickdraw Feats to choose from.

Have you seen the prestige class in question?

How does it look "just like the Fighter"?

It looka different to me.

I don't see how an artificial game mechanic like a Prestige Class automatically acheives deeper reality.

What exactly are you implying by "artificial" game mechanic?

That all the other game mechanics are natural and PrC's don't fit in d20?

Could you point out a prestige class for fighters that you think is acceptable? I am curious.

FD

 

[mmadsen]

Have you seen the prestige class in question? How does it look "just like the Fighter"? It looka different to me.

Yes, I've seen the Iaijutsu Master Prestige Class, and it could've been easily replaced by a list of quickdraw Feats with appropriate prereqs.

What exactly are you implying by "artificial" game mechanic?

It's drawing an artificial distinction to create a separate class for an Iaijutsu Master, or a Knight of the Round Table, or whatever, when the individual is not qualitatively any different; he's just higher level.

The time for a Prestige Class (as a game mechanic) is when a character qualitatively changes; he's no longer just a better Fighter (or whatever). I don't know why they didn't implement high-level Rangers and Paladins as Prestige Classes, because that would've been a perfect time to introduce the new mechanics for spellcasting.

 

[Ranger REG]

Paladin and Ranger character classes has been part of the sacred cows dating back to the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. So it remains as a standard rule.

Prestige classes however is not a standard rule but a variant rule that a DM can implement. That's why the prestige class rules are printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide and not the Player's Handbook.

If the DM decides that make Ranger and Paladin as prestige class, he may do so, and enforce Rule 0. He should tweak them down to level 10 markup with more stringent requirements but allow anyone to take it (do not limit it to combat-oriented classes).