D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[Lizard]

Batman isn't a warlord, he can barely keep tabs on one sidekick!

Seriously though, mechanically speaking warlords attacks require STR rather than DEX, or do they not?

Batman is a striker in his own comic and a warlord when he's on a team. Just like Captain America is a Fighter in his own comic and Warlord when he's on a team.

Spiderman's a munchkin with Web at-will.

 

[Lizard]

Wisdom is for Cugel the Clever.

A Wisdom of 6, maybe...esp. in Cugel's Saga, where it seems EVERYONE managed to put one over on him, while he kept telling himself how smart he was...

I'd almost say Cugel was the classic person too smart for his own good...he underestimated everyone around him because he was convinced he was smarter than they were.

Int 12, Wis 6, Char 14, if I had to.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Guys, the smartest, most clever character is almost always that of the smartest, most clever player.

A smart player can deliberately play dumb if it amuses him (I sometime deliebrately blunder for the sake of comedy), but a dumb player can't play a smart PC.

That's why my low to average intelligence fighter often has better tactics to offer than the 20 Int wizard. And I won't apologize for that!

Mechanically, inteliigence represent academic knowledge for the most part, memory also. In the case of a wizard, he demonstrate an impressive ability to memorize a considerable amount of data and recall it readily even under pressure.

But logic, common sense, the tactical ability to think a few step ahead? You have it or you don't. Stop looking at your stat sheet.

Perhaps the choice of labels for abilities is just a bit unfortunate.

If Intelligence were instead labeled "Lore" (or somesuch) and Wisdom were perhaps instead labeled Intuition/Instinct/Insight/etc., would this still offend some as much?

 

[Casupaa]

I think that we have to realize that 4th ed. is a pure mechanics game. Funny thing is that it would take a stupid rogue, to actually have more than 8 INT .

I really liked the fact that every stat in 3.5 was somehow useful. It gave it a more open ended feel and your stats on your sheets would flow better together with the character you chose to portray. Same with the skill points, I liked being able to use a couple of them for fun and fluff. But thats just not 4th ed. Its all about combat optimizing down a pretty "narrow path".

I think the solution to this is to just realize that everything on your character sheet is how your character acts in combat. When its time for some roleplaying, throw your character sheet out the window!

Someone ealier in the thread pointed out that this was a good thing because stat dumping would give your character a weakness. But thats very untrue, actually the opposite has happened, you can now have a very low stat that almost doesnt affect anything. In 3.5 I loved playing a low wisdom, rogue, swashbuckler type, wich gave me a horrible will save, while stille being quite usefull. That was a fun weakness to play out(with the right DM), but it will never happen in 4th ed. since other ability scores will keep you "nicely evened out".

 

[Casupaa]

So, what is the game mechanic effect that you want from it? This concept has never had mechanical support in any edition of D&D.

Swashbuckler, Duelist and Invisble blade, had great benefit of dexterity and intelligence. Only the Duelist is from a core book, in 3.5 that is.

 

[Ahglock]

Two things I disagree with.

1. STR - Carrying capacity is a non-issue for all of the classes. Basically, the largest single source of load is the armour for a character and characters that don't get the heaviest armour are also the classes that don't NEED a high STR.

2. DEX - Initative isn't as important as before. In 3E, at low and high levels where the game came down to rocket tag, yes, having a high initative was essential but in 4E? Even versus a "CHALLENGING" encounter, a PC will not be going down in one attack

1. The game is about killing things and taking there stuff. Last time I moved I thought my stuff was kind of heavy, carrying capacity matters once you start picking up the loot. Heck the wizard in his cloth armor is the pack mule of the D&D universe since he has no other weight obligations. I will also point out Strength is the default hit someone with a stick stat, so if you are in a bind you might need strength.

2. There are numerous examples so far about how important winning initiative is in 4e. The sleep spell goes from useless to actual fairly useful based on this, since slow means nothing once the opponent is already in your face.

Thing is sure none of these benefits are HUGE, but they are side perks that give a stat a reason for points invested even if its not a class benefit. It seems unwise to me to give 3 stats side benefits and 3 stats no benefits. Now if the benefit was but dude all the cool skills are under int, I might say okay that is the benefit right there. But it seems all the suck skills are under int so I'm even more underwhelmed.

 

[Nifft]

1. The game is about killing things and taking there stuff. Last time I moved I thought my stuff was kind of heavy, carrying capacity matters once you start picking up the loot. Heck the wizard in his cloth armor is the pack mule of the D&D universe since he has no other weight obligations.

True, but not for the reason you suppose.

10 gp + a Wizard = tenser's floating disk. Behold my mule!

Cheers, -- N

 

[Fifth Element]

Well, this is a matter of semantics. There's "cunning", which connotes instinct, and then there's "clever", which connotes planning and forethought. A wolf, panther, or some other predatory animal might be considered "cunning", but you have to be Lassie or Flipper to be considered "clever".

It's really more a matter that the line between Int and Wis, as defined in D&D, has always been blurry at best.

 

[theNater]

Are there enough rogue powers that rely on dex to fill all the power slots? If so, a rogue could take high dex and int, be quick and clever, and not reduce his ability to kill things. Sure, his fort and will defenses won't be as high as they could, but seeing as how AC is the defense most commonly attacked, I don't see this as a major nerf.

 

[Cadfan]

It's really more a matter that the line between Int and Wis, as defined in D&D, has always been blurry at best.

Yep. I hate playing dumb characters, because I don't want to try to roleplay less intelligently than I otherwise could. So my personal rule is that I always have at least one of those scores at a bonus. Which one doesn't matter, because sometimes I can't tell them apart.

There are also places that Int and Wis overlap a bit with Cha, but there are fewer of those.