D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight

[Cyberen]

[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION], thank you for the report !
Seems to unfold as intended by the designers, and as expected by me (in the thread about legendaries as solo fights).
I think I agree with your ruling about blindsight : it takes special measures to attempt to hide inside the range of blindsight, which can be defeated by the Detect LA. Also, good luck for the burglar trying to snatch some treasure covered by several feet of ice or the "clever" group trying to starve a dragon in its larder... Trying to "kite" a dragon which has an at will ability blocking line of sight (the ice cloud lair action) and another one blocking access on top of it (the wall of ice lair action) seem also a quick way to add action heroes to the larder. Nice to see the PCs can prevail, though !

 

[carmachu]

7. 5E legendary monsters are rough. If you play them intelligently, can really make life nightmarish for a group. They usually have a nice combination of offensive and defensive powers that create real problems for a party. If they go all offense, they can be easy to kill. If a DM uses their offensive and defensive capabilities to the fullest, the fights are rough. We haven't had a party decimated like this in ages. This was against a standard module designed encounter we're used to crushing. The dynamics of caster power have changed dramatically. Casters can't mitigate damage like they used to and they have to be very selective with their spells with the concentration mechanic. Healing is far less powerful than it used to be as well, though just as necessary as previous editions. All these factors making 5E very rough in combat.

Can I ask which module/adventure was the encounter from?

 

[Dausuul]

Yes, I think at least some of the observations were the result of taking on a CR 13 dragon with a level 7 party. I have no doubt that some will see the the fact that: (a) a party can be given the option to take on a challenge that will, in all likelihood, result in a TPK; and (b) actually win, after significant losses, to be yet another "feature" of 5e.

a) has nothing to do with the edition. It's entirely up to the DM (who decides what monsters are present) and the players (who decide whether to pick a fight with those monsters). There has never been an edition with rules against putting high-powered monsters in low-level adventures, not even 4E.

As for b), yes, I consider that a feature. Fights where the outcome is never in doubt are dull. The battles you remember are the ones where you beat desperate odds.

 

[Chocolategravy]

No house rule. It's pretty simple. It perceives as though seeing without sight. Pretty easy to understand. You can't stealth if it sees you. That means things like invisibility don't work against it because invisibility only blocks sight. Hiding only stops you from being seen as in sight. If the dragon perceives like sight without sight, what would you as a DM say blocked it's ability to see you while stealthing? Hiding behind a rock doesn't work because it doesn't need sight to perceive you. Normally you hide or stealth by blocking sight. How do you block dragon senses that don't need sight, yet perceive as well as sight?

I agree it is easy to understand, which makes it confusing as to why you can't seem to understand. Nowhere in the description does it say it can penetrate through things to perceive things past them. You keep insisting on adding things to this that are not there. It gives a very concrete example in echo location, and echo location DOES NOT WORK the way you keep insisting this ability works. The example of hiding behind a rock that you give would indeed prevent you from being detected by echo location, contrary to how you are insisting this ability works.

 

[Dausuul]

Nowhere does blindsight say it works "as though" seeing. What it says is that the creature can perceive its surroundings without sight. It isn't darkvision or X-ray vision; it's non-visual perception, representing heightened senses of smell, taste, touch, and hearing.

Therefore, "You can't hide from a creature that can see you" is irrelevant. Blindsight doesn't let a creature see anything. It's up to the DM to decide what's required to hide from blindsight, but I would be inclined to allow Stealth at disadvantage.

 

[Chocolategravy]

I hope you have to fight a dragon played in an intelligent fashion. When it's moving 80 feet a round flying with reach strafing you, I want to see how you deal with that. You seem to think it is quite easy when not optimized for ranged attacks. I'm very doubtful that you will find it so.

If I had a character with no ranged ability I wouldn't take them against a flyer unless they have a 6 INT. That is called role-playing. You have to be stupid to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Your idea of built for offense and my idea differs. I guess you consider a Great Weapon Mastery Fighter with Great Weapon Fighting Style built for what?

I'd say he's built for getting his butt kicked by everyone on the practice field that are also great weapon fighters but took a couple barb levels. Probably not even making it into melee because they'd take him down with javelins before he got there.

A barbarian is not a better defensive build than a paladin focused on armoring up.

It's actually MUCH better, particularly when standing in the paladin's aura and getting the save bonus, which goes nicely with advantage on dex saves and half damage meaning the fighter isn't taking more than 20 damage from that 80 damage breath weapon. The 2 or 3 AC from lack of shield and defensive ability comes NOWHERE CLOSE to making the paladin as good at defense.

Not getting hit is always better than taking even half-damage. A dragon can wander off waiting for the rage to drop, which is quite easy to do prior to a barbarian being able to maintain rage without striking his opponent or taking damage. You seem to think rage "just works" or lasts long enough to outlast the dragon moving. It doesn't. It's a nice ability, but not limitless. Reckless also gives the dragon advantage. They do a lot of damage even when it is halved. I will grant you that a barbarian is better than a fighter combining offense and defense.

So the dragon wanders off... and so do the PCs to get some ranged weapons.

Any melee would have been nigh useless with the dragon maintaining distance and using strafing attacks. You keep overlooking the reduced visibility as well from the fog clouds and the ice walls. The dragon was looking for a party member to rush, so he could cut that member off and kill them alone. Sorry, but fighters and barbarians are not going to beat dragons by themselves in melee combat.

So it strafes and the PCs get their readied action and opportunity attack.

It also needs a fly of more than 120 (and a ridiculously sized room) in order to start and end out of a dash.

If your party wasn't getting these off then it sounds like they were pretty much asking for it, taking no advantage of terrain or positioning.

 

[Cyberen]

If I had a character with no ranged ability I wouldn't take them against a flyer unless they have a 6 INT. That is called role-playing. You have to be stupid to bring a knife to a gun fight.



I'd say he's built for getting his butt kicked by everyone on the practice field that are also great weapon fighters but took a couple barb levels. Probably not even making it into melee because they'd take him down with javelins before he got there.



It's actually MUCH better, particularly when standing in the paladin's aura and getting the save bonus, which goes nicely with advantage on dex saves and half damage meaning the fighter isn't taking more than 20 damage from that 80 damage breath weapon. The 2 or 3 AC from lack of shield and defensive ability comes NOWHERE CLOSE to making the paladin as good at defense.



So the dragon wanders off... and so do the PCs to get some ranged weapons.



So it strafes and the PCs get their readied action and opportunity attack.

It also needs a fly of more than 120 (and a ridiculously sized room) in order to start and end out of a dash.

If your party wasn't getting these off then it sounds like they were pretty much asking for it, taking no advantage of terrain or positioning.

You assume PCs with charop builds, and compare a legendary dragon's lair to a "room". If the DM is half as much a munchkin as the players, you should rather assume ultra difficult terrain (a chasm, a morrass, a cliff, an icy pond, a frozen boulder field...) the PCs need to get across in order to engage a dragon enjoying cover, and using lair actions to deplete the party resources. When the PCs realize they need to go for it and engage these challenges sooner than later, the dragon shows itself, imposes penalties due to its frightful presence, add complications to the terrain (collapsing a part of it, freezing water with its breath weapon, whatever). If the PCs retreat, rinse and repeat. Otherwise, it is quite safe to assume the party is technically split, as some PCs make their checks but not all of them, and the dragon then engages and destroys the weaker group. Also rinse and repeat.
You should not engage a dragon in its lair until any pair of PCs can defeat it, or you are feeling lucky. Working as it should

(In order to put a limit on the kiting by dragons, it is possible to assume they are limited to a few "extended rests" before getting back slumbering for years.)

 

[MoutonRustique]

[deleted by me]

 

[FireLance]

a) has nothing to do with the edition. It's entirely up to the DM (who decides what monsters are present) and the players (who decide whether to pick a fight with those monsters). There has never been an edition with rules against putting high-powered monsters in low-level adventures, not even 4E.

No, it's not a hard and fast rule, but it's a philosophy which influences, among other things, module design.

Can I ask which module/adventure was the encounter from?

[SBLOCK=Spoiler Warning!]Hoard of the Dragon Queen[/SBLOCK]

 

[Dausuul]

It's actually MUCH better, particularly when standing in the paladin's aura

I don't see "free paladin buddy" in the barbarian class feature list. Either you're a paladin or you're a barbarian. Make up your mind.

and getting the save bonus, which goes nicely with advantage on dex saves and half damage meaning the fighter isn't taking more than 20 damage from that 80 damage breath weapon.

So, in other words, you're probably taking the full 80 damage, because a) you don't have a free paladin buddy and b) rage doesn't give you resistance to cold.