D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight

[Li Shenron]

[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] thanks a lot for the amazing report!

This encounter would have made a wonderful campaign end, with most of the heroes dying, sacrificing themselves to defeat the main villain. I know that a lot of D&D players are nowadays used to "the heroes never die" hollywood movie culture, but if the story was told well, with signs accruing that this was indeed going to be the possible last encounter for many PCs, in my opinion it would have been truly epic!

Besides, I agree with those who are actually happy to have truly frightening dragons in 5e. The only thing that worries me a bit, is hearing about the Fighter... I was strongly in favor during the playtest of giving the Fighter some over-the-top abilities, especially on the defensive side (such as the first version of Indomitable, i.e. advantage to ALL saves all the time). Playtesters reacted badly because it sounded too good, but now after cutting here and there things that seemed overpowered, I really hope we didn't end up with an underpowered Fighter again for the nth edition in a row... hopefully this is a problem only with flying monsters with AoE powers.

 

[EroGaki]

It's a reaction to previous editions, especially 3E. Stacking buffs in that edition was very powerful, to the point where it was always better to cast buffs rather than iconic damage spells like Fireball. Many casters complained that they were being turned into "buff-bots" and pre-combat was always several rounds of buffing up.

Concentration is just a mechanism to prevent that style of play from becoming optimal.

If you want to try something different, it is easy to change. You could ignore concentration entirely, and a spell lasts a full duration once cast. Or maybe you could do something like increase the number of spells a caster can concentrate on as her level increases. I.e. A level 1-5 wizard can concentrate on 1 spell, a 6-10 wizard on 2 spells, etc.

I would have simply ruled that each character could only have one buff on at a time. That way, the buff stacking would be negated, while still allowing the casters to buff multiple people.

 

[Derren]

Btw, I think that Dragons have plenty of reasons to not just kite the party to deat

Yes, but that has more to do with the high damage most parties can output at range (archery fighter, ranger, spellcaster, etc.) and the lack of healing abilities. The party is practically kiting the dragon.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

This actually just reinforces my point. Do we tell the players, "Hey, this game is meant to emulate fiction, so all of you but one will die."

Unless your goal is to have a scripted storyline when you play, then I stand by my assertion that comparing a D&D session to a movie or book is fundamentally flawed. Because D&D has a random element to it, you can't really say that monster X would be defeated, or hero Y would live because that's what happened in a scripted and predetermined movie or book.

When my brother whines about things not going the way it would in a book after failing a save or something I just tell him that Conan made all his saves.

 

[occam]

I enjoyed the recap and your observations. Thanks!

BTW, what kind of dragon was it?

Rogues are nearly useless against creatures like dragons or with truesight or blindsight. Completely eliminates their powerful stealth abilities. A paladin doesn't need stealth to use their most powerful abilities.

I don't understand this, though. The rogue could just stand back and make ranged attacks with sneak attack damage (+4d6 at 8th level) every round. Stealth would be nice for the advantage, but not necessary. It seems like that should be pretty effective, as long as one of the rogue's compatriots is in melee with the dragon. He/she also has a good shot at being unaffected by the dragon's breath weapon.

 

[Riley37]

Range and mobility make a difference: yay! Ender Wiggins: "There is no combat without movement".

People assuming that anyone who refers to heroic fantasy, is necessarily referring to the scripted-ending aspect: boo. Come on. Question or debate what someone is actually saying, not a straw-golem argument they never made.

Is it possible to destroy a dragon's lair with Earthquake? Or divert a river to flood it with water?

How long can a dragon stay in its lair without starving?

 

[orangefruitbat]

I prefer the Bilbo Baggins method of dragon disposal:
1) steal his stuff
2) make him come to you
3) let somebody else kill the dragon
4) Profit.

Range and mobility make a difference: yay! Ender Wiggins: "There is no combat without movement".

People assuming that anyone who refers to heroic fantasy, is necessarily referring to the scripted-ending aspect: boo. Come on. Question or debate what someone is actually saying, not a straw-golem argument they never made.

Is it possible to destroy a dragon's lair with Earthquake? Or divert a river to flood it with water?

How long can a dragon stay in its lair without starving?

 

[EroGaki]

I prefer the Bilbo Baggins method of dragon disposal:
1) steal his stuff
2) make him come to you
3) let somebody else kill the dragon
4) Profit.

Exactly. Dragons traditionally are arrogant creatures with a massive god complex. While highly intelligent, they should also have to contend with their own egos. I think a more effective method of dealing with a dragon is to steal their stuff and goad them out of their precious death trap lairs. If they refuse to play, then simply repeat.

Frankly, I think that anyone who actually engages a a legendary creature in its lair deserves what they get.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I enjoyed the recap and your observations. Thanks!

BTW, what kind of dragon was it?



I don't understand this, though. The rogue could just stand back and make ranged attacks with sneak attack damage (+4d6 at 8th level) every round. Stealth would be nice for the advantage, but not necessary. It seems like that should be pretty effective, as long as one of the rogue's compatriots is in melee with the dragon. He/she also has a good shot at being unaffected by the dragon's breath weapon.

The problem was that the Dragon was flying most of the time, with higher fly speed than the single character who had been cast fly on. The fly spell fizzled when the wizard failed his DC29 concentration check vs 59 damage from breath weapon. Basically, they party couldn't get anyone in melee with the dragon. They got kited.

... so, no +4d6 sneak attack for the Rogue, since the Dragon had no-one adjacent to it and could see the Rogue the whole time.

That at least is my understanding of the fight as described by the OP.

 

[ExploderWizard]

They did. But they're not geared for using them. The fighter has a dex of 14. He fired one arrow and hit with a 20 for 12 points. The paladin has an 8 dex. He's not good with a bow. ACs are relatively low, but you still need to be geared for using a bow to do good damage.

This is one area where a finesse DEX based fighter can really shine. Using a bow when needed or a rapier in melee is a strong combination.