Agamon
Adventurer
But I don't want my game to be like a book or a movie!! My players hate reading, and I don't want none of that CGI crap in my game.
D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight
But I don't want my game to be like a book or a movie!! My players hate reading, and I don't want none of that CGI crap in my game.
MoutonRustique
Explorer
For my 2cp.
I cannot accept arguments such as : "a dragon would consider humanoids insects and so stay put when he is obviously going to die." From my perspective, I consider insects to be insects but you'll never see me handle a mix of angry spiders, scorpions, red ants or tze tze flies with my bare hands (yes, I know, spiders and scorpions are arachnids, not insects...)
Adventurers are freaking painful to dragons - those arrows/swords/etc hurt! Elsewise, they would deal negligible damage - which they do not.
If creatures require DM intervention to be defeatable, then I am saddened : as a player, I would not feel a sense of victory (the DM let me win), and as a DM I face the inverse position of having to either low-ball to my players or "loose" the game by "winning" (that's a loose-loose in my book).
I'm fine with dragons becoming plot devices, as opposed to combat adversaries - but then I'd prefer they be explicitly treated as such. Many people have brought up the idea of "defeating" their lair actions - perhaps some suggestions on manners to accomplish that would be helpful. A form of "skill challenge" or "standard" minor preliminary minor quests? Or something else?
Intelligent and powerful foes have always been a difficult aspect of RPGs - in a way they can often turn the game into a form of "beat the DM", which is not a form of play I like in an rpg session.
If the game prohibits reasonable desired outcomes, then that becomes a problem. Maybe not a HUGE one requiring shirt-ripping and chest-banging, but a problem none the less. In this case, it looks like it is a problem worthy of address.
I cannot accept arguments such as : "a dragon would consider humanoids insects and so stay put when he is obviously going to die." From my perspective, I consider insects to be insects but you'll never see me handle a mix of angry spiders, scorpions, red ants or tze tze flies with my bare hands (yes, I know, spiders and scorpions are arachnids, not insects...)
Adventurers are freaking painful to dragons - those arrows/swords/etc hurt! Elsewise, they would deal negligible damage - which they do not.
If creatures require DM intervention to be defeatable, then I am saddened : as a player, I would not feel a sense of victory (the DM let me win), and as a DM I face the inverse position of having to either low-ball to my players or "loose" the game by "winning" (that's a loose-loose in my book).
I'm fine with dragons becoming plot devices, as opposed to combat adversaries - but then I'd prefer they be explicitly treated as such. Many people have brought up the idea of "defeating" their lair actions - perhaps some suggestions on manners to accomplish that would be helpful. A form of "skill challenge" or "standard" minor preliminary minor quests? Or something else?
Intelligent and powerful foes have always been a difficult aspect of RPGs - in a way they can often turn the game into a form of "beat the DM", which is not a form of play I like in an rpg session.
If the game prohibits reasonable desired outcomes, then that becomes a problem. Maybe not a HUGE one requiring shirt-ripping and chest-banging, but a problem none the less. In this case, it looks like it is a problem worthy of address.
Thanks for sharing. I love the fact that magic isn't an "I win" button anymore, and concentration rules require coordination amongst party members to make magic most effective. I also love that some enemies require you to change your tactics (switch from melee to archery), instead of being able to just find ways to apply your same tactic in different ways. I just got the 5E books today as an early Christmas present, but this bodes well!
[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] thanks a lot for the amazing report!
This encounter would have made a wonderful campaign end, with most of the heroes dying, sacrificing themselves to defeat the main villain. I know that a lot of D&D players are nowadays used to "the heroes never die" hollywood movie culture, but if the story was told well, with signs accruing that this was indeed going to be the possible last encounter for many PCs, in my opinion it would have been truly epic!
Besides, I agree with those who are actually happy to have truly frightening dragons in 5e. The only thing that worries me a bit, is hearing about the Fighter... I was strongly in favor during the playtest of giving the Fighter some over-the-top abilities, especially on the defensive side (such as the first version of Indomitable, i.e. advantage to ALL saves all the time). Playtesters reacted badly because it sounded too good, but now after cutting here and there things that seemed overpowered, I really hope we didn't end up with an underpowered Fighter again for the nth edition in a row... hopefully this is a problem only with flying monsters with AoE powers.
The fighter's weakness has only shown up against flying monsters. The fighter hammers when he can hit stuff. An archer would have hammered the dragon given it has no defense against ranged attacks such as a access to a wind wall spell. The fighter is still dependent on his party for buffing for things like flight. He gets hammered by Dex and Wisdom attacks which become stronger as you level lowering the chance he succeeds at them. Everyone has definite weaknesses now because saves become hard as you level with lower stats and a lack of proficiency bonus. For example, wizards are easy to banish because banishment is a charisma save. Fortunately, I've picked up counterspell to provide some protection from it. Spells that target Charisma can be nasty. Plane Shift is now a Charisma save or get transported to another plane and have to find your own way back. That isn't going to be easy for any class quickly unless they have the right spell prepared. There are just a lot of odd attacks that can cause serious headaches as you level up that make caster versatility pretty damn important.
I would just like to focus on the area of D&D and movies.
Now I always hear the comparison of John McClaine and other "heroes" who manage to get shot and blown up, and still make it out alive. A misconception has developed over the past while about what it means to be a hero. I frequent many forums, and have for years, and a trend I see from some people is that in order to be considered a hero in D&D, you have to have cool powers, kick everything's ass, and if you do die: you have to have their permission and it has to be scripted and setup in such a cool way that it has to be an ever lasting badass moment that will be brought up at the table for years to come.
This may seem like an exaggeration but it's true. You can play D&D this way but the default system isn't setup this way and I'm glad. I'm a "let the dice fall where they may" kind of person and if that means Jardon the great hero gets killed by a kobold's lucky arrow from an ambush then so be it.
Now I always hear the comparison of John McClaine and other "heroes" who manage to get shot and blown up, and still make it out alive. A misconception has developed over the past while about what it means to be a hero. I frequent many forums, and have for years, and a trend I see from some people is that in order to be considered a hero in D&D, you have to have cool powers, kick everything's ass, and if you do die: you have to have their permission and it has to be scripted and setup in such a cool way that it has to be an ever lasting badass moment that will be brought up at the table for years to come.
This may seem like an exaggeration but it's true. You can play D&D this way but the default system isn't setup this way and I'm glad. I'm a "let the dice fall where they may" kind of person and if that means Jardon the great hero gets killed by a kobold's lucky arrow from an ambush then so be it.
White dragon.
I was wrong about that part. A rogue could be very effective if the party planned to make him so. He might be even more effective than most of the party. I was wrong about that after doing some thinking. In our particular scenario, the rogue would have had a hard time given no one made it into melee. Doing an ambush, the rogue might have been amazing if he had hidden farther away than the dragon can see with blindsight. I'm very wrong about the rogue.
I'll explain some of the difficulties the rogue has to face, which planning can eliminate:
1. Assassin archetype: Rogue can't get surprise within range of a dragon's blindsight. That eliminates the assassin archetypes best opening ability: critical hit sneak attack on the surprise around. He could do it with a bow from far away by ambushing the dragon when he exits the cave.
2. Sneak Attack: When no one makes it into melee, very hard for the rogue to sneak attack. A rogue can sneak attack by gaining advantage on attack rolls or when an ally is within 5 feet threatening the dragon. In our particular scenario, neither of those events happened.
3. Dragon was a white dragon. Breath weapon was a Con save. That would have hammered the rogue. Most cold attacks are Con saves. Rogue is not good against cold attacks until he picks up Resilient Con.
After spending some time thinking of how my own rogue would handle the scenario, planning could have led to a win:
1. Rogue is a great switch hitter. He can use ranged attacks with bow and switch to melee with no loss of efficiency.
2. With Uncanny dodge he could have halved the damage of the dragon's strongest melee attack. This would have made it easier to heal.
3. He could have kited the dragon or stayed hidden if over 100 feet away, while still attacking. Put a rogue in a forest full of trees where he can hide, anything will have problems winning.
4. He would have done effective single hit damage while kiting.
Rogue maybe very good against dragons. Only problem being his fighting style wouldn't have been great for an immobile fighter and paladin. If the fighter and paladin had been able to get into melee, he would have done very well. I was flat out wrong about rogue effectiveness. They would be better than a melee based fighter against a dragon, far better. If the dragon had a Dex-based breath weapon, way, way, way better. That breath weapon ate us up.
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Exactly.
We always assume creatures that have lived as long as dragons know how to discern casters from martials. And know about commonly used effects like fly and the limitations of magic. So act accordingly. We don't play dragons stupid. They are unique, nearly immortal, highly intelligent beings that have been fighting against all types of threats for many generations of even elves. It is nearly impossible to trick a dragon. They do not fly into melee letting the fighters action surge them to death. They fight tactically knowing that the little beings can hurt them. They opportunistically destroy their enemy with full awareness of what they can and cannot do.
Dragons with overlarge egos don't live to be old. So we don't play them with an ego that makes them want to enter melee and risk their hide. We play them with an ego more like an evil genius where they use their physical superiority in a very intelligent way that disallows the party from bringing their full might upon the dragon.
Didn't have web memorized. Might have brought it to the ground for a round. Then again Legendary resistance pretty much guarantees it makes its save at least three times. If Web was going to bring it to the ground, it would use resistance to make it.
The cave had a 100 foot ceiling as well. So no way to set it up to impede him. Would have to had to cast it on him. Doubt that would have worked with Legendary resistance.
It's not impossible, especially if you have ranged attackers. It's going to take patience and planning. Zerging a dragon is only going to work if you're lucky or the DM plays it dumb.
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