Occult Slayer & Spell Turning.

[Scratched_back]

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack.

Disintegrate is not a targeted spell, it is an effect spell. It creates a ray, which may be directed. This is an important, sometimes silly, distinction.

Umm, nitpicking it may be, but this is the very nature of our business here... it does clearly state some effects are rays. What about others? I follow your arguement, it's both logical and concise, but something doesn't sit right about a ray being an effect spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Umm, nitpicking it may be, but this is the very nature of our business here... it does clearly state some effects are rays. What about others? I follow your arguement, it's both logical and concise, but something doesn't sit right about a ray being an effect spell.

Some other effects are things like 'one wall of stone', 'colorful lights in a 20 ft. radius spread', etc.

Not all Effects are Rays, but all Rays are effects. Look up any ray you like in the PHB - Scorching Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Frost, Disintegrate - they'll all be 'Effect: Ray'.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Umm, nitpicking it may be, but this is the very nature of our business here... it does clearly state some effects are rays. What about others?

It's pretty easy to tell.

Look at the spell description.

If it has a line like:

Heat Metal
Transmutation [Fire]
Level: Drd 2, Sun 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Metal equipment of one creature per two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart; or 25 lb. of metal/level, all of which must be within a 30-ft. circle
Duration: 7 rounds
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

-- or --

Mage Armor
Conjuration (Creation) [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No

-- or --

Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

then it's a targeted spell. If, instead, the spell description looks like:

Wall of Iron
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Iron wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

-- or --

Helping Hand
Evocation
Level: Clr 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 5 miles
Effect: Ghostly hand
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

-- or --

Ray of Enfeeblement
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

then it is not a targeted spell.

By the by, how does your Occult Slayer know whether or not to turn a given spell? Does he have the spellcraft ranks to determine what spell is being cast at him?

 

[Scratched_back]

Well that's cleared the ray business up then, glad I got that.

By the by, how does your Occult Slayer know whether or not to turn a given spell? Does he have the spellcraft ranks to determine what spell is being cast at him?

I don't have an occult slayer, merely speculating that it was a PrC powerful enough for any fighter-type to lust after because all tanks hate being dominated etc. But to answer your question, if I did have one, Spellcraft is one of his PrC pre-reqs so he'd be able to see what's coming yeah.

Sorry, he'd have a CHANCE to see what's coming at least.

 

[moritheil]

Well that's cleared the ray business up then, glad I got that.



I don't have an occult slayer, merely speculating that it was a PrC powerful enough for any fighter-type to lust after because all tanks hate being dominated etc. But to answer your question, if I did have one, Spellcraft is one of his PrC pre-reqs so he'd be able to see what's coming yeah.

Sorry, he'd have a CHANCE to see what's coming at least.

Using the Asmodeus example, if Asmodeus smacks him with the epic "save or die" spell from all the way off-plane, he's not going to know he has to activate his ability to repel the spell.

However, if somehow senses the scrying sensor involved in targeting him, or something . . . hmm . . . would you guys rule that he could say that he wants to resist the next spell targeted at him without knowing wht it is?

 

[Scratched_back]

Using the Asmodeus example, if Asmodeus smacks him with the epic "save or die" spell from all the way off-plane, he's not going to know he has to activate his ability to repel the spell.

However, if somehow senses the scrying sensor involved in targeting him, or something . . . hmm . . . would you guys rule that he could say that he wants to resist the next spell targeted at him without knowing wht it is?

I think that'll be one of those things that has to be solved in-game. It seems very much down to DM discretion because it is quite a fruity ability, there'd need to be lines drawn.

 

[moritheil]

I think that'll be one of those things that has to be solved in-game. It seems very much down to DM discretion because it is quite a fruity ability, there'd need to be lines drawn.

Well, this thread accomplished one thing for me. I always remembered having a dim memory of there being something funny with this PrC, and now I know what it is.

 

[VorpalStare]

Another Explanation

This has recently caused a slight arguement between a friend and I, as there are two quite valid interpretations:

1) This ability functions just as spell turning does, except it has no duration and is in effect a 'one off' and the level of spell you are allowed to turn is your occult slayer level +5, mistakingly reffered to as caster level.

2) This ability functions just as spell turning, although any singular spell can be turned by it, irrespective of level. The caster level is provided to show workings, for want of a better phrase, and so other variable effects can b taken into account. Wording suggests it can turn a single spell, not certain spells of certain levels etc.

As always, we turn to ENWorld for clarification and opinions on our disputes.

Cheers all

Let me propose another explanation for how this ability works:

From Complete Warrior, p 67:

Mind over Magic (Su): Starting at 2nd level, an occult slayer can cause a spell or spell-like ability targeted against her to rebound onto the originator as a free action . This ability otherwise functions as the spell turning spell (caster level equals the character's occult slayer level +5). An occult slayer can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and twice per day at 4th level.

From the Player's Handbook, p 282:

Spell Turning
Abjuration
Level: Luck 7, Magic 7, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until expended or 10 min./level

Emphasis mine.

Note that this ability requires a free action, not an immediate action. Strictly speaking, this means that the ability cannot be used when it's not your turn. While poorly worded, this could very reasonably be interpreted to mean that, once or twice a day, an Occult Slayer can invoke the spell turning effect at his class level +5, meaning that it turns 1d4+6 spell levels, and lasts for (class level +5)x10 minutes. Since it's a supernatural ability, it can't be dispelled, even by an area dispel. A 5th level Occult Slayer could do this twice a day, and his spell turning effect each time would last for 100 minutes or until all of the turning capacity was exhausted.

I believe this explanation makes nails down most of the ambiguity in the description of the ability and serves to limit its power to that of a 7th level spell.

As an aside, when was the concept of an immediate action introduced into the rules? The first reference I see is in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, which came out about 5 months after Complete Warrior in April 2004. It's possible that there was no game mechanic available to allow an OS to reflect spells back reflexively, even if that was the intent of the designers. On the other hand, if the designers chose not to make use of this ability an immediate action, then the explanation I have proposed makes the most sense.