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D&D 5E October 29th Playtest Class Changes

It seems like they are trying to ensure that Two Weapon Fighting has pros and cons compared to just using a single weapon that in the big picture make either choice valid and a matter of character style and preference.

It seems like we go back and forth between two atttacks at some sort of diminished chance to hit (flat out penalties or disadvantage) or less damage (half damage); or one attack that represents both weapons dealing damage with some limiting factor (half damage, you only get ability mod for the off-hand, etc.). None of them are particulary satisfying.

I wonder about allowing two straight up attacks, without disatvantage or penalties, and just downgrading the damage dice. So for example, if a fighter is using a longsword and shortsword combo, his attacks deal 1d6 and 1d4. If a monk uses a quarterstaff as a double weapon, each end does 1d6.
 

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I was just really a fan of the original two attacks at half damage.

The difficulty is in wording it so that damage bonuses (such as deadly strike/sneak attack) are not halved.
 

I would have like using the specialty version from last packet as a default optionffor two-weapon fighting, than allowing a specialty that focused on improving it.
 

I can understand when designers follow a particular path, but it's not to my taste - I respect that 4E is well-designed, but I don't particularly like it. What I don't understand is design decisions that don't add anything, that don't help future design, that actively make things more difficult. I sadly feel that this packet suffers from the latter.

Wow, see I'm disappointed in this packet as well and part of that is I feel like it's going FARTHER from 4e not closer.

Something really wrong with this packet if we both don't like it, and we have the opposite reaction for why we don't.
 

Wow, see I'm disappointed in this packet as well and part of that is I feel like it's going FARTHER from 4e not closer.

Something really wrong with this packet if we both don't like it, and we have the opposite reaction for why we don't.
This is precisely why I still think D&D Next is doomed. I think that what I've read so far is a pretty good compromise between the philosophies of both editions. The problem is, when you try to give both sides what they want you end up pleasing nobody.

Plus, so far it looks like the math is off. What I'd like to see is that Wizard damage is balanced with Fighters like:

The Fighter does 20 damage per round for an average of 20 rounds a day(400 damage per day). The Wizard can cast 3 spells per day. The rest of the time he does 1/3 of the Fighter's damage per round(130 damage over 17 rounds). But that means that if we want the spells to roughly equal them out, they each have to do 90 points of damage. Fireball currently does this when it hits 10 enemies for half damage or 5 for full. However, many other spells don't do that much damage.

Also, of course, the problem with this math is always that there's no good way to estimate how many rounds of combat there will be on average across all campaigns.

I haven't played with these rules yet, but I suspect it'll end up with the same feeling I felt playing the Wizard in the first playtest...like I was kind of weak and not able to contribute to the party.

On the other hand, when I played a Fighter in the 2nd playtest, I felt like I was extremely overpowered. Most of the time I was doing damage equal to the rest of the entire party combined.
 

I think this packet is a conscious "turn the dial back" experiment on WotC's part. In fact, I think they are expecting disappointment. What they are trying to gleam is

a) WHERE is the disappointment STRONGEST
b) WHAT was dialed back but there is little to no disappointment

Next packet will swing the other way again.

Its only been a day, but little whining on healing is occurring, for example.

I say play it as is, warts and all, and then approach the survey honestly.
 

I think this packet is a conscious "turn the dial back" experiment on WotC's part.

I suspect you are correct. It seemed that many people felt that first level characters were too powerful in the previous packets. Even with the first packet, they said that they were erring on the side of players being overpowered. Now the baseline has been scaled back. This is something I'm okay with.
 

My initial response was very negative; it's been tempered a bit in places upon further reading, though.

The changes to the fighter? Fine. Great. I miss Jab and Snap Shot, Whirlwind Attack seems to make Cleave obsolete, and Parry should be fighter-specific. Tumbling Dodge is kind of cool. The extra attack at level 6 seems a bit clunky at first, but I can see it adding a lot of cool options... I'd almost rather see the action points from the first playtest return instead, though. (And I certainly didn't expect them to cut out all the good fighter specialties instead of adding more.)

The cleric? I had to laugh when I saw we're basically back to the 3e cleric, with fewer spells and domains. And the wizard traditions are quite underwhelming. I think taking away the unlimited cantrips/orisons was a terrible idea, and not just because it ruined my favorite feats. It adds unnecessary complication and only makes every wizard in a given tradition rely on the exact same spells over and over. (How many battle wizards do you think WON'T be casting Thunderwave every single combat?) I think it would be a much better idea to have a narrower list of 0-level spells to choose from and then have each tradition/domain grant an additional 0-level spell not on the general list.

As for the spell progression... pure silliness IMHO. A single spell at first level? Were people really clamoring for that? It seems very likely they just wanted the numbers to work out so that a level 10 character has about 10 spells. Okay, here's another way of achieving that:

Code:
Lvl  1  2  3  4  5
1    3  -  -  -  -
2    4  -  -  -  -
3    4  2  -  -  -
4    4  4  -  -  -
5    2  4  2  -  -
6    -  4  4  -  -
7    -  2  4  2  -
8    -  -  4  4  -
9    -  -  2  4  2
10    -  -  -  4  4

See that? You've got 8 spells per day by 4th level and it stays that way indefinitely. If you want a lower-level spell you can prep it in a higher slot. If this "overpowers" spellcasters then the spells themselves should be toned down; no way a dedicated spellcaster should be expected to go entire battles without casting a single spell, like clerics are up to about level 5.

The rogue? Bleh. 9 of its 14 maneuvers are shared with fighters. Sneak Attack is just a conditional Deadly Strike. This class is basically crappier than a fighter in every way except that he has more skills (and is better with them). I know everyone likes to be sarcastic about how the fighter should be best at fighting, but this is a frankly boring way of achieving that.

Here's a quick "fix": give the rogue an entirely different scale for expertise dice. Give him 1d6 per level. Return Sneak Attack to its previous iteration (only when you have advantage). Add a Flanking Strike maneuver that lets you add only the best expertise die result to damage. (Take away Parry too.) That way rogues can still do crazy damage with SA, and when they use dice for other stuff they get more reliable but lower results. (More but smaller dice.)

I'd still rather they keep expertise dice for fighters, but at the very least they should work to make the classes more unique in the way they use them.

Overall, I actually like a lot of the specific changes to spells and so on, but I'm kind of shocked by some of the changes they made to the classes. Mearls made a big deal about how universally popular the at-will cantrips are; why would they screw that up to satisfy a few pre-4e purists who STILL can't make a damn wizard without unlimited cantrips? Do they honestly think that players are going to be excited to roll up a cleric that can only cast one spell a day? After thousands of forum posts debating whether and how other martial classes could use expertise dice and still remain unique, did they really think giving rogues five unique maneuvers and crappier HP and armor proficiencies would be a step up in class design?

I hope that jrowland is right and they're shaking things up to see what rattles.
 
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Now that I've had some time to digest the changes, I have some thoughts on the classes.

Each class seems to be built on a similar model. You get an attack bonus, some front loaded class features, and a list of abilities that your class draws from. Maneuvers for Fighters and Rogues, spells for Clerics and Wizards.

Each class also gets a sub-class, such as a fighting style, scheme, tradition, and deity.

Conceptually, this is a solid system, but the current implementation has a couple problems. First, other than the Fighter's extra attack, classes get absolutely no unique class abilities after first level. I'm not comfortable with this. Second, the sub-classes of every class feel incomplete.

Cleric: The cleric's deities are the most complete example of a sub class. The abilities they grant are in addition to those granted by the base class, and interact with the clerics spellcasting mechanics.Where they fail is that they lack any of the "class" package options that the other classes use, such as suggested background or equipment options. Also, I agree that a cleric's deity should have an impact on their weapon and armor proficiencies.

Fighter: The fighter has the exact opposite problem as the cleric. Fighting styles are nothing but class packages. They don't provide any unique features. I think that the fighter should get to choose maneuvers like a wizard does spells, and that fighting styles should provide both extra maneuvers and a class feature that truly expresses the fighting style.

Rogue: Rogues schemes are probably the worst. They're just a package of skills and maneuvers, but without any of the other class package options. They lack anything special to the class or the scheme.

Wizard: Traditions are cool, with features that make each one unique and that augment the class's native spellcasting. But, they lack any of the package options.


I worry about there being too much symmetry among classes, but in my mind the solution to that is to make sure that their special class features are, in fact, special. For example, I don't mind that the rogue gets maneuvers or expertise dice--but in exchange, fighting styles need to look more like wizard traditions. They need to augment certain maneuvers and promote an actual fighting style.

In addition, I think that every class should get at least two unique class features over the course of ten levels. Perhaps at 5th and 10th level.
 

It seems like we go back and forth between two atttacks at some sort of diminished chance to hit (flat out penalties or disadvantage) or less damage (half damage); or one attack that represents both weapons dealing damage with some limiting factor (half damage, you only get ability mod for the off-hand, etc.). None of them are particulary satisfying.

Fundamentally if you want to keep TWF balanced with THF and SB, then you have 3 options you can pursue.

1) TWF provides a blend of offense and defense. Its offense is less than THF and defense less than SB.

2) TWF is situationally offensive. Its offense is weaker than THF in some cases, and better than THF in others. Note that doesn't necessarily mean that amount of damage, it could also be the amount of targets.

3) TWF provides a side benefit that doesn't conflict with THF and SB. This is a benefit unique to the style.


Most of the time, designers have been working with option 2. The key is the situation has to be external to the character. If they did something like "your weapon die is lowered", then either TWF is always weaker than THF or always stronger depending on your character build.

The current version is a decent idea. Normally TWF is weaker, but if you have advantage on the target the penalty is negated and now its stronger. the only real drawback is the number of dice you need imo.
 

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