Of Mooks, Plot Armor, and ttRPGs

That is the essential difference, yes. Out of setting, plot and character, setting is the most important to me. I'm aware this puts me at odds with a lot of folks here, but I get more fun out of worldbiilding, reading, and fiddling with mechanics than I do out of playing.
All of those are important to me. My group loves worldbuilding! But we also love character development and dramatic plots. (My longest-running Fate character changed every one of his aspects except his high concept, some of them multiple times. My current one has already changed two.)

A game in which everything went right for our heroes would be completely boring. And also incidentally not at all like good stories.
 

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I guess my problem is that my formative ttRPG gaming was B/X, 1e and it was pretty lethal at low levels especially... but the literature didn't have tons of main characters dying to random things.

And so I like, for example, that 13th age has hard ruled encounter pacing and not dying to silly things - but I also hate having that four encounters are a day to recharge (wow - those 200+ hours on a boat with no combat all in that same day, and we never got any rest in) and that you can't die to a non-named foe (for the love of God, don't ask the villains their names!). Is it only my past experience and that I try not to think about it that DM villain and tactics adjustments on the fly don't bother me as much?
I think so, yes. It sounds like you want to emulate the narrative and genre more or less, so things that support that work better for you. For me, I want to emulate a "real" world with fantasy elements, and things that make that world less real but aren't part of the fantasy aspects bother me. Setting is more important than plot and character to me, and worldbuildibg is my favorite part of gaming.

As I've said above, this is most true for D&D and its relatives. In other games I am more flexible.
 

All of those are important to me. My group loves worldbuilding! But we also love character development and dramatic plots. (My longest-running Fate character changed every one of his aspects except his high concept, some of them multiple times. My current one has already changed two.)

A game in which everything went right for our heroes would be completely boring. And also incidentally not at all like good stories.
Plot and character are absolutely important. I just put setting on the top of the list.
 

A game in which everything went right for our heroes would be completely boring. And also incidentally not at all like good stories.
To be fair, I do think that's a generally held position. The difference is more in where you put the player side incentives. I generally prefer games where the goal is to try and ensure everything goes right, and my choices and planning can lead to that as an outcome. Games that use narrative structures for pacing/resolution tend to suffer from the opposite problem, in my experience, where they insist things must go wrong, so as to be "interesting." I want to allocate resource, makes contingency plans, and ideally steamroll through obstacles through my skill....I also, of course, want to fail to do that and have to think reactively when it call comes crumbling down and goes bad, but that means the obstacles can't be structurally impossible to defeat that way, and that I can actually be rewarded with that kind of easy success when I earn it.

I generally think players should be able to mitigate death as a consequence, but not using a meta-game resource. Encounter structure should make them fairly survivable and sufficiently competent that they have tools to deal with most situations. Ideally also, players should have sufficient awareness to know when they can't deal with something and have tools to disengage.

I don't think variability is the interesting part of risk. It's not that you might randomly die that's interesting, it's that the board state will evolve dynamically in a way you can't entirely plan for, and iterated, tactical decision making is necessary to proceed. There should certainly be a flowchart that leads to death on the table when you're modeling combat, but it should take an exceptionally bad player to find it.
 

Games that use narrative structures for pacing/resolution tend to suffer from the opposite problem, in my experience, where they insist things must go wrong, so as to be "interesting."
Huh. Fate, which is my go-to example, doesn't exactly force things to go wrong for the characters. It's more that bad die-rolls are inevitable in the long run, in which case one must either "succeed at a cost" or else take one's lumps. Of course, Compels can bring about bad situations, but in areas you signed up for, so to speak. (And reward you with precious Fate points!)
 

Huh. Fate, which is my go-to example, doesn't exactly force things to go wrong for the characters. It's more that bad die-rolls are inevitable in the long run, in which case one must either "succeed at a cost" or else take one's lumps. Of course, Compels can bring about bad situations, but in areas you signed up for, so to speak. (And reward you with precious Fate points!)
The mechanical underpinnings behind Fate and base design of the game is so alien to my way of thinking about TTRPGs that I have a hard time even seeing it as the same hobby sometimes.
 

The mechanical underpinnings behind Fate and base design of the game is so alien to my way of thinking about TTRPGs that I have a hard time even seeing it as the same hobby sometimes.
I won't argue that playing D&D 1e and playing Fate feel very different! I was a little dubious of Fate myself before playing it. All I can say is, it WORKS! It works really, really well. It makes dramatic story beats just kind of happen, without major effort on anyone's part. (Though time taken in crafting good aspects is time well spent!)

I don't know where one draws the line as to whether two games are in "the same hobby" or not. Both games involve playing roles, so they would seem to be RPGs. That they are very different RPGs I will not deny! I for one much prefer Fate to any version of D&D.
 

Huh. Fate, which is my go-to example, doesn't exactly force things to go wrong for the characters. It's more that bad die-rolls are inevitable in the long run, in which case one must either "succeed at a cost" or else take one's lumps. Of course, Compels can bring about bad situations, but in areas you signed up for, so to speak. (And reward you with precious Fate points!)
Same thing, different trade dress. Honestly I think FATE is degenerate when you try and optimize it this way. A player doing that would be trying to provoke compels that are as inconsequential as possible, and/or basically lie about their character's intended gameplay, so that their aspects are tagged negatively in ways they don't care about.

It would be a frustrating experience for everyone involved to try and play FATE that way, and clearly not the intent of the game.
 

Same thing, different trade dress. Honestly I think FATE is degenerate when you try and optimize it this way. A player doing that would be trying to provoke compels that are as inconsequential as possible, and/or basically lie about their character's intended gameplay, so that their aspects are tagged negatively in ways they don't care about.

It would be a frustrating experience for everyone involved to try and play FATE that way, and clearly not the intent of the game.
Sorry, what? Who is trying to optimize it what way? Are you criticizing my play without knowing anything about it?

I agree that anyone seeking Compels they don't care about is missing the entire point of the game.
 

Sorry, what? Who is trying to optimize it what way? Are you criticizing my play without knowing anything about it?
No, not at all, I'm saying that is structurally unsuited for the kind of play I'm talking about. "Degenerate" in that the incentives would lead to the game being unplayable or unpleasant of you treated it that way.
I agree that anyone seeking Compels they don't care about is missing the entire point of the game.
This is the point, that the structure of the game is to provoke dramatic situations and react to them, while my impulse would be to avoid them, or attempt to minimize their impact. It is a game calibrated to produce a specific kind of result that doesn't rely on all players striving to "win" in the way that so called "gamist" games so. There's a different bargain at the table and a different set of assumptions in the magical circle about behavior and decision making.
 

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