Of Mooks, Plot Armor, and ttRPGs

[The Shadow]

Perhaps I can put it this way: I'd rather see my character fail spectacularly than succeed boringly. If I were to get to choose between spectacular success or spectacular failure, probably most of the time I'd choose the former. (But not always.) But I don't get to choose that, that's left up to the game.

I don't have or want a guarantee of success. I want a guarantee of drama. Of meaning.

 

[bloodtide]

Too good to waste from a random encounter that isn't supposed to be meaningful or particularly dangerous. Certainly open to death in a Shakespearean tragedy kind of way. This is how I'm reading it. Or the character grows in a more positive way, letting go of blind hatred. Might still die, or retire peacefully. Playing to find out. But dying in some stupid fashion? Not satisfying.

But it's not just "random encounters" it's all encounters except that once a year ultra rare "Shakespearean tragedy kind of way". So that does that does basically apply to all encounters. And it's up to the player and DM to build up an encounter: you can't fight the evil lich on the edge of the cliff minutes before midnight when the lich will summon undead-chtoolu, UNLESS you take the time to build that and plan and play it all out.

This is the exact dichotomy we're talking about! You're assuming that if the character won't die meaninglessly to any random orc, that therefore he will succeed in everything he does!

Why? Why make that assumption? I can easily see that character failing spectacularly! Going down in flames! They'd be dramatic flames, but still flames!

Maybe one of Demogorgon's lieutenants kills him, and mocks him as he dies! Maybe he succeeds in killing Demogorgon, but takes his place due to the corruption of his soul, changing nothing in the long run except losing his soul! Maybe one of his friends persuades him with tears to turn aside from his destructive path!

There's lots of possibilities! Why do you insist there's only one?

I'm on the side that anything including chracter death is possible. The poster is on the other side that gives the player character plot armor.

This.

And a note for those playing along at home: this is very clearly NOT an example of "preserving a character to save the DM's pre-written plot." It's not a reaction to the game being "too difficult." It's preserving a character to participate in an unwritten plot.

YES it is, THIS is exactly what it is: The character MUST do the pre written plot. Just like a movie or TV show.

Though sure, it's different then the "solo DM pre written plot" : It's worse. It's either the PLAYERS pre written plot or the DM/Players pre written plot. Any way it's a pre written plot, and all are bad.

 

[The Shadow]

Though sure, it's different then the "solo DM pre written plot" : It's worse. It's either the PLAYERS pre written plot or the DM/Players pre written plot. Any way it's a pre written plot, and all are bad.

Dude. When you get to the point of saying the other guy is having badwrongfun, it's time to stop. But it's actually worse than that, as you aren't engaging with anyone's actual point.

There is no pre-written plot being discussed here. Not by the DM, not by the player. How horribly boring would that be?

We're playing to find out what happens. The only guarantee is that what happens won't be dull.

 

[The Shadow]

And it's up to the player and DM to build up an encounter: you can't fight the evil lich on the edge of the cliff minutes before midnight when the lich will summon undead-chtoolu, UNLESS you take the time to build that and plan and play it all out.

Let me use this scenario of yours as an example. Let's say that the party of our Demogorgon-obsessed ranger is fighting this lich. Nothing has been pre-planned at all, by anybody. Here's some possibilities:

When the guy sees one of his friends go down to the lich, he suddenly realizes that his obsession with the demon lord who killed his old friends is putting his new friends in peril here and now! He rededicates himself to heroism rather than revenge, and battles the lich with renewed fervor. Maybe he wins and maybe he dies, but either way that's a great way to go out.

Or, he finds he just doesn't care about his friend going down after all. If he survives, that might lead to some soul-searching. If he doesn't, at least he went out with some tragic irony - maybe his last words will reflect a change of heart.

Or, nothing particularly dramatic happens, and they win.

Or, nothing particularly dramatic happens, and they lose. The lich finds our ranger's psychic connection with Demogorgon intriguing, and decides to experiment on him. He decides to spare his friends so he can threaten their lives to get him to cooperate. (To me, that's considerably more horrifying than being killed!)

There's many, many possibilities, and nothing needs to be decided beforehand.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Perhaps I can put it this way: I'd rather see my character fail spectacularly than succeed boringly. If I were to get to choose between spectacular success or spectacular failure, probably most of the time I'd choose the former. (But not always.) But I don't get to choose that, that's left up to the game.

I don't have or want a guarantee of success. I want a guarantee of drama. Of meaning.

Sounds like a fun game. But to me, the guarantee of drama immediately makes it less verisimilitudinous, and therefore interesting to me.

 

[The Shadow]

Sounds like a fun game. But to me, the guarantee of drama immediately makes it less verisimilitudinous, and therefore interesting to me.

And that's fine. I've got no problem with people having fun in different ways than I do.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't think @pemerton is talking about anything 'meta' at all.

Which is why I specifically was talking about ones that were baked into the mechanics instead. The problem with the "plan that works" is its dependent on a number of things, only some of which the players have control over. If you want "only meaningful death" that's too weak a process to do that, IMO.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think I'm one of the few posters in this thread to have actually referenced a particular RPG which has as a concrete principle that PC death is not normally an important part of play, namely, Prince Valiant. (The Shadow referenced Fate.)

Though I should note I mentioned a whole genre of RPGs where its (generally; Iron Age style SHRPGs do exist) true.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But that is what you said? Here is the quote again:

See where you typed "what good would dying part way through that story be?" So that means no character death, right? The character can't die because it would not be good. Sure it's not off the table as you say, in theory, but chances are you would not let it happen, right? The characters story is too good to waste, as you said?

OK, but what is 'the full story?' I mean, PLAYING OUT the thing, I didn't know where it was going to go. In fact, I just happened to roll up a ranger (hard to do even in 1e AD&D sometimes) and it had good stats, and I came up with a fun name, so I was kind of pumped. After the rest of the party got slaughtered then I figured "OK, I have a thing now, my enemy is those demon worshipers!" 1e rangers are supposed to get a bonus against 'giant class humanoids', but I told the DM, "nope, his bonus is against Demogorgon cultists!" That was about it. I mean, the character, at this point, was kinda cool. He could have had a fairly short story arc where he got himself ganked because he was too stubborn to give up. Actually, a subtext was that every other party he adventured with always ended up getting slaughtered or screwed over somehow because he'd always end up making it all about getting more of those darned demon worshipers. I mean, it wouldn't have been too shabby a story if the paladin had just ganked me! lol. I mean, once I got to about 5th level paladins and such were like "no thanks, there's something wrong with THAT guy!" So, there could have potentially been many endings.

Now, this does bring up the topic of how D&D (1e AD&D in this case) is not a GREAT vehicle for this type of story. Obviously one point being a stray arrow can just derail the whole fun story arc. The other though being, for this type of story, the whole "one for all and all for one" party thing, which Cargorn was NOT into, other PCs lives were totally disposable in the name of THE mission! He'd gladly save your bacon, but not if it pulled him away from his real work. The whole mandated alignments thing is not that helpful either. Luckily by the mid-80s we'd long got past all that stuff. Cargorn was NOT a good guy, his followers were a heorn, an undead bear, and an evil leprechaun! His preferred magic items were magical bark armor made from the hide of treants, a vampiric ring of regeneration, and a vampiric longsword! So that part was pretty good, but the whole 'must be good?' BWAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! I'm good, I kill demons! Oh, say, if I stake you out over there some will come... Plus a lot of the 'machinery' of D&D really wasn't that useful to his story. Like we'd have been better off with a combat system like BW maybe, or FATE where you have a good chance to do your thematic thing. But it worked, it just took having a GM that I was super good with, and other players that were super good, and etc.

But, Cargorn could have died, or 'ended his story' in a dozen ways. Mike just let it run and eventually the interests of a bunch of high level PCs came together and we went a huntin in the Abyss. Fun place, nowadays Cargorn thinks its the natural world. I hear some demon hunters are coming for him! hahahahaha.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is the exact dichotomy we're talking about! You're assuming that if the character won't die meaninglessly to any random orc, that therefore he will succeed in everything he does!

Why? Why make that assumption? I can easily see that character failing spectacularly! Going down in flames! They'd be dramatic flames, but still flames!

Maybe one of Demogorgon's lieutenants kills him, and mocks him as he dies! Maybe he succeeds in killing Demogorgon, but takes his place due to the corruption of his soul, changing nothing in the long run except losing his soul! Maybe one of his friends persuades him with tears to turn aside from his destructive path!

There's lots of possibilities! Why do you insist there's only one?

That last one is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Did I win? The character thinks so, everyone else is SLIGHTLY less sure...