Off Hand Parry vs. Two Weapon Defense

[CrimsonTemplar]

Off-Hand Parry

Prerequisites: BAB +3, Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 13+

Benefit: When fighting with two weapons and using a full attack, you may sacrifice all your off-hand attacks in exchange for a +2 Dodge bonus to your AC. This bonus stacks with a buckler.

***

Two-Weapon Defense

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting

Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.

It apprears that Two Weapon Defense is replacing Off-Hand Parry in 3.5. Frankly I think Two Weapon Defense is pretty pathetic, especially in light of my buying a +2 buckler to help up my AC while fighting & the Shield bonus to AC won't stack with the buckler. I haven't taken IWF or GWF yet so I wasn't giving up too much by parrying. Also, since it's a Shield bonus and not Dodge it no longer helps against touch attacks.

Was OHP so powerful that they had to tone it down? And that badly?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't think OHP was overpowered, but I can see the reason why they changed it. Two-Weapon Defense now works regardless of whether you are making a full-attack or not, whereas Off-hand Parry only worked during a full-attack. So it's better in that regard. And since both were meant to off-set the lack of a shield the two-weapon fighter has, it makes sense that it wouldn't stack with a shield.

The reduced AC is a bit perplexing, though.

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

Well, rather than cheat and retool my feats I'll just not buy that +2 buckler I was going to get. How much is a ring of protection +2 now?

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

Ring of protection +2 is 8000gp, same as always.

 

[Darklone]

You don't have to sacrifice attacks for Two weapon defense, you had to for Off hand parry. Off hand parry was bad, Two Weapon Defense is good.

 

[MadScientist]

I agree. I would much rather have two weapon defence than off hand perry. Even though it gets +2 AC OHP is far to limited, I would almost never actually use it.

 

[drnuncheon]

Was OHP so powerful that they had to tone it down? And that badly?

OHP too powerful? It was pathetic. If you wanted to take a -2 on all your attacks for a +2AC, might I suggest (Combat) Expertise? Fewer prerequisites, more flexibility...

J

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Off Hand Parry vs. Two Weapon Defense

OHP too powerful? It was pathetic. If you wanted to take a -2 on all your attacks for a +2AC, might I suggest (Combat) Expertise? Fewer prerequisites, more flexibility...

J

... able to use it during a standard attack (OHP only works during a full attack), still able to get off-hand attacks while using it ...

OHP was a nice thought, but the +2 AC just doesn't cut it, frankly. The only time I take OHP, is with more-than-two-armed characters, and only after milking Expertise (now combat expertise) AND Twin Sword Fighting (now Two Weapon Fighting) for the maximum.

Had me an insectile Kobold Fighter(10)/Duellist(15), wielding six weapons .... five of them +5 Defender rapiers. With OHP, etc, I could push his AC up over the 110-120 mark. Heh.

But still, that's an extreme, munchkinised abuse of the way those feats, weapon abilities, template effects, AND class abilities interacted with each other.

Generally, OHP is an underpowered feat ... a nice idea, but a bit weak on delivery. I think it would have worked better if you could sacrifice an AoO and/or give up an off-hand attack on your prior round, to be able to make an opposed attack roll to actively parry one attack. That would be powerful, but if it took BOTH an off-hand attack AND an AoO to use it (which means it'd either work on only one attack per round, or, you've got a lot of other feats giving more AoOs and off-hand attacks) ... if it took both, I think it'd be balanced, as (perhaps) a mid-level feat. Comparable to ImpCrit, maybe?

 

[drnuncheon]

FFGs Path of the Sword has a couple of feats superior to OHP as well:

Two-Weapon Defense lets you take a -2 to all atatcks to get a +4 dodge to AC when weilding two weapons. Not only do you not give up the off-hand attacks, but it's actually better than Expertise (although Expertise is a requirement).

Parrying Weapon is very similar to the new Two-Weapon Defense, except that you do have to give up your attacks with the weapon (but you don't take the -2). I always felt it was a little weak, and it looks like the 3.5 team agreed.

J

 

[Tellerve]

Monk's with their unarmed can't benefit from "two-weapon fighting" right? They can't because if you wanted all your monk attacks could come from the same "weapon" right?

Just wondering,

Tellerve