Off Hand Parry vs. Two Weapon Defense

[Lareit]

Ehh Pax.
Unless I'm not seeing the way the Insectile chrs work
Those 6 limbs are your total limbs not 6 arms in addition to your legs.
So 2 for feet, 2 for chest and the other 2 are used in your additonal dex/climb/tremorsense.
Also, you wouldn't beable to wield weapons in those other 2 arms as it states you get no additional attacks due to having 6 limbs.

Someone tell me if i'm wrong, i'm making an Insectile Elf soon and i'd love...and hate to find out they are that powerful.

I mean hell
2 ac
4 dex
2 wis
temorsense 60
climb
no flank
darkwise
+4 spot check
6 arms to wield weapons

all for 2 ecl? I have to say they woulda fudged that up big time if that was the case.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Why again wouldn't you still be able to take Off-hand Parry and have it stack with TW Defense? Currently, can't these two feats work together?

 

[Tellerve]

Wow, even without 6 arms that is way impressive for 2 ecl. I mean, 60 tremorsense, yesh, but all the other stuff too, dang.

Tellerve

 

[MadScientist]

Re: re

Why again wouldn't you still be able to take Off-hand Parry and have it stack with TW Defense? Currently, can't these two feats work together?

As I read it, yes they are stackable. The OHP is a dodge bonus for giving up off-hand attacks and TWD is a sheild bonus just for using two weapons.

Even with stackability though, OHP is not useful enough to warrant spending a feat on it though, at least in my opinion.

 

[Pax]

Ehh Pax.
Unless I'm not seeing the way the Insectile chrs work
Those 6 limbs are your total limbs not 6 arms in addition to your legs.
So 2 for feet, 2 for chest and the other 2 are used in your additonal dex/climb/tremorsense.

Attacks: Despite having 6 arms, Insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.

The ability to wield so many rapiers came form having the arms (which gave no extra attacks for just being there), and going down the Multiweapon Fighting chain (all the way to the end, as it so happens). Also note, nothing would have prevented an Insectile Ogre from using all six hands to wield a single bloody-huge greatclub, for +3.5 times STR modifier to damage.

Also, you wouldn't beable to wield weapons in those other 2 arms as it states you get no additional attacks due to having 6 limbs.

A human gets no extra attacks for his second arm -- but certain feats can make use of the presence of that limb, to enable extra attacks. See my reference to (Perfect) Multiweapon Fighting, above.

Someone tell me if i'm wrong, i'm making an Insectile Elf soon and i'd love...and hate to find out they are that powerful.

I mean hell
2 ac
4 dex
2 wis
temorsense 60
climb
no flank
darkwise
+4 spot check
6 arms to wield weapons

all for 2 ecl? I have to say they woulda fudged that up big time if that was the case.

You would really have to take the Multidexterity and Multiweapon Fighting feats (though I suppose Multidexterity has been folded into Multiweapon Fighting, much the same way Ambidexterity was folded into Two-Weapon Fighting).

The reference to gaining no additional attacks means, the mere presence of the limbs doesn't let you make extra CLAW attacks and the like.

Celtavian writes
Why again wouldn't you still be able to take Off-hand Parry and have it stack with TW Defense? Currently, can't these two feats work together?

About the ONLY reason to take OHP, is for when you're ALREADY using Combat Expertise to the max AND you have two weapon fighting. And even then, while it WILL stack ... you can only use OHP during a Full Attack Action.

Tellerve commented
Wow, even without 6 arms that is way impressive for 2 ecl. I mean, 60 tremorsense, yesh, but all the other stuff too, dang.

Tellerve

Try an Anthropomorphic Insectile Squid, with the Fang of Llolth prestige class. 16 limbs ---> 14 arms, 2 legs. 14 weapons of Defense, +5, TWF, OHP, CE, Duellist PrC ... we're talking AC's in the mid-to-high 100's.

Although ... 14 pairs of Glove of Storing gets a mite bit expensive, heh.

 

[Lareit]

Actually a human can attack twice with each weapon. Just as an extream negative modifier so he requires no feats to use his 2nd hand, he just sucks at it naturally and only gets one attack.

An insectile chr only has 6 limbs, 2 are legs, i dunno but i've never see anyone wielding true weapons with their feet decant enough that would be useful. The 2 upper "arms" act just like the base creatures arms, normal dual or single weapon using arms.

The 2 middle arms are whats giving you that added Dex bonus, whats giving you the natural climb ability and helps with the tremorsense ability.

So how is taking multiweapon fighting letting you fight with your legs and 2 other limbs that are there for balance and support.

Also, you can't be an aquatic insectile chr so your squid won't work.
Climate: Never aquatic.

 

[Pax]

An insectile chr only has 6 limbs, 2 are legs, i dunno but i've never see anyone wielding true weapons with their feet decant enough that would be useful. The 2 upper "arms" act just like the base creatures arms, normal dual or single weapon using arms.

Some advice: always rely on what is printed, not on the neat pictures. The book says an Insectile creature has six arms. So, despite the picture of the Insectile Ogre, an insectile creature has six or more limbs -- as the passage "creating an insectile creature" indicates:

SavS page 122:
[...] An insectile creature is a biped, and it gains four more arms.. [...]

See: quoting the text is much more effective -- not to mention accurate -- that looking at the illustrations, isn't it?

So how is taking multiweapon fighting letting you fight with your legs and 2 other limbs that are there for balance and support.

An arm is an arm. Nothing in the template says it cannot wield a weapon, only that having the extra arms doesn't give you free extra attacks, solely by dintof the limb being there.

Also, you can't be an aquatic insectile chr so your squid won't work.
Climate: Never aquatic.

So? That's an effect, not a requirement; the interaction with that, and needing to breathe water, would be up to a GM.

Besides which -- what do you think lobsters and other marine athropods are? Basically, aquatic bugs.

 

[kreynolds]

Damn, Pax. Your harsh.

 

[Pax]

Damn, Pax. Your harsh.

I've no problem being proved wrong by the written rules (though it irks me if it's a FAQ reference that goes against the published rules ... *sigh* 'nother story for 'nother day).

However, it gets a bit difficult to keep a civil tongue in my head when someone is seemingly more inclined to look at the pretty pictures than to read the actual rules. It took me five revisions of my post, to come up with the almost-civil one you see above.

 

[Lareit]

Ridiculement, Nice, very mature.


One thing about Insects and crustaceans. They are very different. Evolutionary, physically, etc.
Also you should know bugs meaning virtually anything with an exoskeleton and insects are different too.

Insects have 6 limbs. Period. Crustaceans are not subject to this rule. If you want to be purely sematical and exploit every way this is worded you can go on base physics. Insects have 6 limbs. No if's and's or but's about it. The Insectile ogre in the pic has 6 limbs in clear conjunction with the order of Insect.

So do we belive that insectile chrs are +2ecl for
4 dex, 2 wis, 4 additional arms, tremorsense 60, climb, 2 natural ac, no flanking, +4 spot checks, darkvision.
Which according to Pax, we get. I know he's exploiting the wording. I'm willing to bet good money he knows too he's exploiting the wording. I mean hell two levels behind, for an additional 4 attacks, granted at an extream modifier. But by the time you're epic level with perfect multi weapon fighting thats 24 attacks, to the figher with 2 arms 8.

If you also want to start quoting words pax. Despite having 6 arms the insectile create gains no additional attacks.

Thats a no additional attacks. Not no additional nautral attacks, or weapon based attacks. a clear cut no.

You are correct under the wording here a human, now has 6 arms. However under the wording, precisely it means those 4 additional arms don't help his attacks per round at all.

If you want to go by the wording exactly, you can't pick or choose which statments you want to follow.