Offhand weapons, AoO, and shield-bashing

[Pickaxe]

Some questions about the nature of offhand weapons came up in a discussion I was having with a friend.

1) Let's say a ranger with a regular longsword and a magic shortsword moves and makes an attack. Can he make his single attack with the shortsword? If so, does he suffer any penalty because this would be his offhand weapon?

2) Can the same ranger make an attack of opportunity with the shortsword? If so, does he suffer any penalty?

3) If a character has a shield (possibly with spikes) but no weapon drawn, could they make an attack of opportunity using a shield bash? Since a shield is always considered to be offhand, do they suffer a penalty?

--Axe

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Some questions about the nature of offhand weapons came up in a discussion I was having with a friend.

1) Let's say a ranger with a regular longsword and a magic shortsword moves and makes an attack. Can he make his single attack with the shortsword? If so, does he suffer any penalty because this would be his offhand weapon?

2) Can the same ranger make an attack of opportunity with the shortsword? If so, does he suffer any penalty?

3) If a character has a shield (possibly with spikes) but no weapon drawn, could they make an attack of opportunity using a shield bash? Since a shield is always considered to be offhand, do they suffer a penalty?

--Axe

1) Yes. And it depends on his level. At level 1, the "off-hand" takes a penalty (-4 ?), because if you're right-handed, for example, it's harder to use your left hand. At level 2, he can pick up Two Weapon Fighting, which negates the penalty for off-hand weapons. In effect, he's as good with either. The only penalty you still take is due to the awkwardness of fighting with two weapons, not because of his "off-hand" (which is now pretty much a false term). So, if he did not attack with both weapons *as a full attack action* (see #2), then he could use the short sword at no penalty.

2) Yes, and same conditions as #1. I'm pretty sure he could even use the longsword for his attack action, and use the short sword on an AoO the same round, without taking a penalty. Why would he want to do that? Possible reasons may include having both weapons prepped with poison. If he has to move to the enemy and only make one attack anyway, but later in the round he has a chance to deliver the full payload, it may be worthwhile.

3) Same rules as the first two situations. Just remember, you can't bash w/ bucklers and tower shields, and it's fine. Our dwarven fighter has had situations both ways, where he faces someone with DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning, so sometimes he'll only use his shield or waraxe, but doesn't want to drop the inactive one. Especially the shield, what with its other benefit.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Some questions about the nature of offhand weapons came up in a discussion I was having with a friend.

1) Let's say a ranger with a regular longsword and a magic shortsword moves and makes an attack. Can he make his single attack with the shortsword? If so, does he suffer any penalty because this would be his offhand weapon?

2) Can the same ranger make an attack of opportunity with the shortsword? If so, does he suffer any penalty?

3) If a character has a shield (possibly with spikes) but no weapon drawn, could they make an attack of opportunity using a shield bash? Since a shield is always considered to be offhand, do they suffer a penalty?

--Axe

Pretty big can of worms, here. There are no rules for handedness (whether a person is "right-handed" or "left-handed") in D&D. There are rules for using a weapon in the "off-hand", but that term only comes up when discussing TWFing to get an extra attack during a full attack.

"Off-hand", therefore, means "extra attack when using TWF". It definitely does not mean "left hand". For example, a person TWFing with a greatsword and armor spikes is using a greatsword with *both* his hands, and slamming/kneeing/etc. with the spikes as an "off-hand" attack--even though that off-hand attack is not made with a hand-held weapon.

There's a quote in the Damage section of the SRD that references the TWF rules: "Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus." This quote makes things confusing by mixing "off-hand weapon" with "weapon in your off hand". As far as I know, this is the only reference to an off-hand weapon actually being held in the off-hand. Note that there is no definition in the rules for "off-hand" alone--only references to "off-hand attacks" (in other words, the extra attack made when TWFing).

So, all that said:

1) Yes, he can make a single attack with the shortsword. In this case there is no TWF (he's not making an extra attack during a full attack--he's not TWFing), so the short sword isn't an off-hand attack. He gets full Str bonus to damage, and there is no TWF penalty.

2) Sure. If the ranger had a longsword in one hand, a short sword in another, armor spikes, a spiked gauntlet, and the feat Improved Unarmed Strike, then he'd be threatening with five weapons. If given an AoO, he could choose to attack with any one of those weapons. Regardless of his choice there'd be no attack penalty, and he'd get full Str bonus.

3) Shields don't always have to be off-hand attacks. The official FAQ addresses this exact question:

Q: Can a character make a shield bash attack using the
shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand
weapon?
A: While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand
weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is
holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from
declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course,
that means that any attack you make with your other hand
becomes a secondary weapon.

Again, the term "off-hand" only applies when TWFing. If you're making just a single attack, then whatever attack you're making is just a normal attack--regardless of whether the weapon used to make the attack is hand-held, regardless of whether the weapon is held in the right or left hand.

So if the character makes the AoO with the spiked shield he'd attack at no penalty and get full str bonus to damage.

-z

 

[pawsplay]

No.

Hypersmurf offered a fairly persuasive argument that TWF are always active, but I disagree. To me, the penalty is for wielding weapons "in this fashion", that is, attacking with both.

An AoO or a partial action is an attack with one weapon, and draws no penalty. This will be reassuring to the shield users of the world, as well as any character with IUS.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Off-hand", therefore, means "extra attack when using TWF". It definitely does not mean "left hand".

[glossary]off-hand[/glossary]: A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

[glossary]off-hand[/glossary]: A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.

-Hyp.

That is, however, from the glossary, and not consistent with the text for TWF, unless you wish to impose a -8 penalty on attacks and wish characters to still not have access to the deprecated Ambidexterity feat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That is, however, from the glossary, and not consistent with the text for TWF, unless you wish to impose a -8 penalty on attacks and wish characters to still not have access to the deprecated Ambidexterity feat.

I have no problem with assuming that the -6 penalty with your primary hand and -10 penalty with your off-hand while two-weapon fighting has already taken into account the -4 for an attack with the off-hand.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

I have no problem with assuming that the -6 penalty with your primary hand and -10 penalty with your off-hand while two-weapon fighting has already taken into account the -4 for an attack with the off-hand.

-Hyp.

However, it says only that it is usually the left. Perhaps that is simply because the left is usually used for a second weapon. Also, nothing in the fighting with two weapons description implies that penalty has been alleviated when you throw in TWF.

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, it says only that it is usually the left.

Right. Because usually, a person's weaker or less-dextrous hand is the left.

In unusual people, it's the right.

Also, nothing in the fighting with two weapons description implies that penalty has been alleviated when you throw in TWF.

Which is why I assume that the -4 difference between the penalties you take with your primary hand (-6) and off-hand (-10) while fighting with two weapons is the same -4 difference between the penalties you take with your primary hand (0) and off-hand (-4) while fighting with one weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Bagpuss]

3) If a character has a shield (possibly with spikes) but no weapon drawn, could they make an attack of opportunity using a shield bash? Since a shield is always considered to be offhand, do they suffer a penalty?

First off a shield is not always considered to be offhand, it can be your primary weapon if you want (particularly if it's a +1 heavy spiked shield of Bashing [2d6]), in this case you wouldn't take a penalty.

If it is off-hand then you would take a penalty, but you can always use one to make an AoO, no matter which hand.