Offhand weapons, AoO, and shield-bashing

[Hypersmurf]

The glossary entry points out that off-hand attacks (which the game defines as the extra attack when using TWF, usually made with a weapon held in the left hand) have a -4 penalty and 1/2 strength to damage. That's true, and supported by the TWF table, the entry for Strength, etc.

The rules for one-handed and light weapons on p113, with no reference to two-weapon fighting, state that a melee attack with such a weapon held in the off hand adds 1/2 Str bonus to damage.

The rules for damage on p134, with no reference to two-weapon fighting, state that when you deal damage with a weapon held in your off hand, you only add 1/2 Str bonus to damage.

When we look up what the off hand is, the glossary tells us, with no reference to two-weapon fighting, that it's your weaker or less dextrous hand - usually the left. It also informs us that attacks with that hand incur a -4 penalty.

The text on Two Weapon Fighting doesn't define the off hand; rather, it tells us what happens if we wield a second weapon in our off hand. The only place the off hand is defined is in the Glossary - your weaker or less dextrous hand (usually the left).

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I still think those references in the Equipment section loop back to TWF, but let me pose an experiment.

Guy with a dagger in his left hand. You're saying if he makes a single attack with the dagger, his attack will be at -4.

Guy with a dagger in his left hand, and he has the TWF feat. You're saying if he makes a single attack with the dagger, his attack will be at -4.

Guy with a dagger in his left hand, a dagger in his right hand, and the TWF feat. He makes a full attack with TWF to get an extra attack. Both his attacks will be at -2/-2.

So he's *better* with his left hand attack when he adds the complexity of combining it with a right hand attack?

Doesn't it make more sense that a single attack is made at full attack bonus, regardless of which hand (if any!) holds the weapon? That the term off-hand and it's associated penalties only come into play when making an off-hand attack (which is covered only in the TWF rules)?

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

So he's *better* with his left hand attack when he adds the complexity of combining it with a right hand attack?

Right. It's an unanticipated side-effect of removing the Ambidexterity feat.

Doesn't it make more sense that a single attack is made at full attack bonus, regardless of which hand (if any!) holds the weapon?

If he's right-handed? Doesn't make more sense to me!

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

If he's right-handed? Doesn't make more sense to me!

-Hyp.

Well, I guess the question is if non hand-held weapons are considered primary or left handed.

Like, a kick. Or a headbutt. Or armor spikes. Or shield bash. Or an elbow.

Does the -4 apply only to weapons held by the fingers? All attacks involving the left arm? All attacks involving the left side of the body?

I think what I'm looking for is some place where the rules ask the player to define handedness. Height and Weight are on the character sheet, but it seems that if left hand = -4, that'd be mentioned somewhere more prominently than the back of the book.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, I guess the question is if non hand-held weapons are considered primary or left handed.

Like, a kick. Or a headbutt. Or armor spikes. Or shield bash. Or an elbow.

Armor spikes are specifically able to be used as either a regular melee attack or an off-hand attack.

A shield bash is specifically made as an off-hand attack.

A kick or a headbutt I'd personally allow as either.

I think what I'm looking for is some place where the rules ask the player to define handedness. Height and Weight are on the character sheet, but it seems that if left hand = -4, that'd be mentioned somewhere more prominently than the back of the book.

PHB p110.

"Your character can be right- or left-handed."

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

PHB p110.

"Your character can be right- or left-handed."

-Hyp.

Rules of the Game 8/29/06

"Off Hand, Off-Hand Weapon: When attacking with two weapons, the character must designate one of his hands as his off hand; the weapon held in that hand is treated as his off-hand weapon. The game rules don’t really care about whether you’re right-handed or left-handed, and it’s even OK to change your off hand designation from one round to the next.
"

So, a guy with shield on his left arm can designate his left arm as primary, meaning his right arm is off-hand. If he does that, he doesn't suffer "off-hand" penalties with his shield bash attacks.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

Rules of the Game 8/29/06

Yes, but I don't find any support for that Rules of the Game in the rules of the game

The PHB says to determine whether you're right- or left-handed. The PHB tells us the effects of your weaker or less-dextrous hand. Skip tells us the game doesn't care, and you can switch back and forth.

I don't find Skip's statement to gel with what the book says.

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Yes, but I don't find any support for that Rules of the Game in the rules of the game

The PHB says to determine whether you're right- or left-handed. The PHB tells us the effects of your weaker or less-dextrous hand. Skip tells us the game doesn't care, and you can switch back and forth.

I don't find Skip's statement to gel with what the book says.

-Hyp.

Fair enough.

To me it comes down to fun. If the player wants to designate his left arm as primary when he makes a standard-action shield bash attack, that's fine--I'm not going to penalize him with off-hand penalties since he's only making a single, and therefore primary, attack. It's fun, the rules aren't clear, and the game impact is minor.

If he wanted to TWF, then I'd have him declare one of his attacks as off-hand and he'd apply 1/2 str bonus to damage. Even if, say, his two weapons were a sword held in the right hand and a kick made as an off-hand attack.

Simple, quick, and consistent. Done!

-z