Official word on Dragonshield tactics and movement interrupts in general

[zero skill LPB]

Seriously. Ow.

Another poor choice on the editor's part for brevity's sake.

I look forward to running this for my two groups, but man. So many landmines and gotchas to navigate.

 

[silentounce]

I appreciate Mearls' clarification on this rule. Metagaming DMs will be counting 10- or 12-squares from their charging PCs when deploying the kobold Dragonshields. This way, they are sure to get one "free miss" out of their Dragonshield Tactics ability. Nice!

FYP.

No, in all seriousness, the question should be whether or not kobold dragonshields are that tactically sound.

 

[OakwoodDM]

Eleran's case 1 is how I had understood it. I thought with Dragonshield Tactics, one shift per round would allow a Dragonshield to possibly escape one attack per round. With the Mearls clarification, I guess it's decent for avoiding getting flanked, or keeping a range attacker engaged, but not near as potent as I had originally thought.

It's also very handy for keeping an opponent flanked, as the Paladin player in my group discovered, as he tried his hardest to get out of a flank between the Dragon Shield and a Skirmisher while at the same time maintaining his mark on the Dragon Shield. He just couldn't get away, what with this ability plus Shifty. 1d6+3 each turn from the DS at +10 and 1d6+1d8 at +9 from the skirmisher. He wasn't happy.

 

[pogminky]

It's also very handy for keeping an opponent flanked

Kobolds for the win!

 

[Stormtower]

FYP.

No, in all seriousness, the question should be whether or not kobold dragonshields are that tactically sound.

*Shrug* You say metagame, I say sound tactics. It IS, after all, a game we are playing.

At my table, Kobold Dragonshields are certainly tactically sound. Why give a monster an ability like "shifty" or "Dragonshield tactics" unless the DM is intended to use said ability to its maximum advantage?

 

[Obscure]

What if the defender, who has readied an action, pushes the charging enemy one square (e.g., with Tide of Iron) when it moves adjacent? Can the enemy complete the charge if it has enough movement left?

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Well, be careful. The example you cite doesn't work, because Tide of Iron is not a basic attack, and with some very rare exceptions, Opportunity Attacks must be basic attacks. So that example probably isn't going to happen.

However, let's imagine this fighter with tide of iron has some other ability or feat that lets him use Tide of Iron as a basic attack. As I read the rules, if the charging character still has movement left it should be able to continue it's charge towards the target, even after being pushed back by the OA.

-rg

 

[naturaltwenty]

See I played it as written (with the assist of the PHB), i.e. the tactics in the first encounter layout that the dragonshields and skirmisher let the minions move first. I used the minions to move forward slowly, let the PC's expend their charge on them and then let the dragonshields charge in and start the flanking doom.

The players got through the first encounter with a little damage but the suprise encounter I killed 2 out of the 6* and left 2 seriously wounded.

* Dragonborn Paladin, Dwarf Fighter - seriously wounded
Elf Ranger Dead, Half Elf Cleric - dead
Eldarin Warlock, Human Wizard - barely scathed

 

[Obscure]

Well, be careful. The example you cite doesn't work, because Tide of Iron is not a basic attack, and with some very rare exceptions, Opportunity Attacks must be basic attacks. So that example probably isn't going to happen.

However, let's imagine this fighter with tide of iron has some other ability or feat that lets him use Tide of Iron as a basic attack. As I read the rules, if the charging character still has movement left it should be able to continue it's charge towards the target, even after being pushed back by the OA.

It's not an opportunity attack though, it's a readied action. You can use a standard action to ready any type of action (standard, move, or minor) and hence use any power you like.

I agree that by the RAW the enemy should be able to finish his charge if he has the movement left, but the RAW doesn't take into account that the charger loses his momentum (which is represented by the 2-square-minimum charge rule).

 

[Radiating Gnome]

A readied action, though, is not an interrupt, it's a reaction. If you're using a readied action, you must wait until after the move is completed, then take your action that was readied. This is why you can't interrupt a spellcaster while they are casting a spell -- if you ready an attack for someone to cast a spell against your part, your attack goes off AFTER the spell does.

This is different from the way readied actions worked in 3.5, so it's easy to miss the distinction.

So, in the case of the readied action, the charge would be complete before the readied action could be triggered. Since the charge includes the charge and the attack in a single action, I believe the charging enemy would complete the charge, make the attack, and THEN the fighter with the readied action could do the tide of iron move.

-rg
EDIT:
DOH! I think I'm a huge dumbass!! More being edited soon

New Answer:

Forget everything I just said -- it's been so long since I read through this thread I forgot everything that came before.

You react to each space of movement as a micro-move. So, your opponent moves into range, your readied immediate reaction goes off. You do tide of iron and push the opponent back. That all does work, despite what I said earlier and have struck out to preserve my shame for all eternity.

STILL . . . I would still make the case that unless something has made it impossible for the attacker to complete the charge, and he still has movement, he can continue the charge if he wishes.

Now, an attack that knocks the target prone, immobilizes him, something along those lines -- THAT would work to stop the charge because it would make it impossible to continue. So, if you're really trying to intercept the charge, a grab action might be your best readied action if you have no other options.

It would start to look like a football game, too.

Sorry again for my big mistake. I'm not all that bright . . .

-rg