OGL; Is it working?

[JoeGKushner]

I think Psion's rather saying that they support D&D in that they keep players in the d20 realm rather than having them go off into another game system entirely. Ryan Dancey five years ago said that one of the other goals of OGL was to reduce the number of competing systems out there, to reduce the cycle time for a player to "come back to D&D" - in other words, speed up the Skaff Effect.

It's not really the d20 r ealm though when hit dice, default magic level, and a host of other tweaks force you to relearn how to use even mundane bits like skills. For example, Arcana Evolved has some skills be an opposed check unlike standard d20. The further from d20 the variant games go, the less likely they are to be used in my opinion.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think Psion's rather saying that they support D&D in that they keep players in the d20 realm rather than having them go off into another game system entirely. Ryan Dancey five years ago said that one of the other goals of OGL was to reduce the number of competing systems out there, to reduce the cycle time for a player to "come back to D&D" - in other words, speed up the Skaff Effect.

Right. I'm ten times as likely to crack open A Game of Thrones (of which I currently know nothing) than I am to go pick up any World of Darkness books. I don't want to go learn some new system just because someone likes d10s better than d20s. I'd rather learn a system that's an alternate version of something I'm already familiar with. That is, unless it's a very simple system like Fudge or My Life With Master...something you can grok in 10 minutes. That's actually one of the things I like about independent games: they usually have dead-simple mechanics geared toward generating certain effects in play. But they have to be simple, otherwise it's just a pain to switch systems every time I want to do something different...which is what life was like back in the day.

Anyway, if I find a book that's essentially D&D with a different spin, but isn't d20, I'll wonder why they bothered to come up with a new system when they could just modify the existing open-source system to suit their tastes. Especially because if I want to play it, I have to teach 5 or 6 other people how. If it were a d20 game, I could just say, "it works like D&D, except..."

If we want some additional variety, what the world needs is more open systems. I hear Harnmaster is going to be re-released as an open system. Well, if I learn to play that, I'll be able to pick up and play any system derived from that open system. And that's cool. d20 can't do everything. But two or three open systems might be able to between them.

 

[Akrasia]

... in other words, speed up the Skaff Effect.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is 'the Skaff Effect'?

 

[WizarDru]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is 'the Skaff Effect'?

From an interview with Ryan Dancey:

"In fact, we believe that there may be a secondary market force we jokingly call "The Skaff Effect," after our own [game designer] Skaff Elias. Skaff is one of the smartest guys in the company, and after looking at lots of trends and thinking about our business over a long period of time, he enunciated his theory thusly:

"All marketing and sales activity in a hobby gaming genre eventually contributes to the overall success of the market share leader in that genre."

In other words, the more money other companies spend on their games, the more D&D sales are eventually made. Now, there are clearly issues of efficiency -- not every dollar input to the market results in a dollar output in D&D sales; and there is a substantial time lag between input and output; and a certain amount of people are diverted from D&D to other games never to return. However, we believe very strongly that the net effect of the competition in the RPG genre is positive for D&D. "

 

[Psion]

Can't say I agree 100% with that. $50 bones is a lot of money to spend on a supplement that you're not going to be using in the mainline, for example, Game of Thrones. Great game, but if I wanted something standard to use in my D&D campaign, I'd pick up the Spell Compendium or Champions of Valor as a counter example.

1) What Henry said. I didn't confine my example to things that you would immediately use in a D&D game, as my citation of Blue Rose/True20 should show. (That said, I think there is plenty you can take from Thieves' World or Black Company into traditional D&D games. You've given some examples yourself...)

2) If you narrow it down to "my D&D game", its still pretty hard to dispute that it is support even if people are going to use the official-branded products more than third party products. You can't introduce "degrees of support" into the argument and then make presumptions about my position. I merely made an assertion that there is, clearly, support.

 

[BryonD]

1) What Henry said. I didn't confine my example to things that you would immediately use in a D&D game, as my citation of Blue Rose/True20 should show. (That said, I think there is plenty you can take from Thieves' World or Black Company into traditional D&D games. You've given some examples yourself...)

2) If you narrow it down to "my D&D game", its still pretty hard to dispute that it is support even if people are going to use the official-branded products more than third party products. You can't introduce "degrees of support" into the argument and then make presumptions about my position. I merely made an assertion that there is, clearly, support.

Agreed. But it is a case where perception is reality.

Even throwing out the official vs 3rd party part, some products will be perceived by a notable fraction of the market as less applicable to the game they play.
Thus they will fail to get the widespread recognization as "support", even if they merit it, and will have a disadvantage in sales.

Take Black Company since I do own that one. It is a great book and certainly has some stuff that is great for any D&D game. But the generic D&D value per page is unquestionably less than that of Hammer and Helm. It isn't an all or nothing scenario. It can have real value to a typical D&D game while still having less value for it when compared to another product.

So that is one tier down.

Then add in that some simply won't get past the Black Company part to even look inside. Maybe they are presuming the contents poorly. Or maybe their budget limitations are such that they just aren't going to give a tangent product a serious consideration. Or whatever else. The perception of "support for my game" is somewhere less than 100% of the real value of the product.

So that is another tier down.

It may not be fair or even smart. But it is.

 

[eyebeams]

Do you have some evidence that the OGL was originally intended specifically to reduce demand for other systems?

Oh, just Ryan Dancey saying it was intended, is all. Gareth pointed that out, in that bit where he quotes Ryan Dancey word for word.

What makes you think this is the fault of the OGL, as opposed to other forces in the market? Personally, I think the softcover market was thwapped by the economics of publishing, and the fact that folks simply prefer a more durable book with a more solid binding with better artwork...

In short: Softcovers were part of the major flood of material that was indiscriminately distributed during the D20 bubble. The long answer does not exclude what you're saying, but to be honest, discussing it in any convincing detail is (given prior experience) probably not a constructive use of my time.

 

[Knightfall]

There are some areas though, that I don't think have been touched enough. My opinions of course.

Nice list of alternatives, but lets see what I would buy (I buy a lot of books, But I'm picky)...

Magic Items: There needs to be some alternative magic items to the core out there. Even if it's just collected form various resources and expanded. Perhaps include a magic item creation method that can replace or be used alongside the standard system. (Forged in Magic, the small Green Ronin book that did collect magic items in the 3.0 era, and a few others come into play like Arms & Armor, which was a catch all)

I might or might not buy this one. Well done, alternative magicial items would be a great boon for any campaign, but if WotC put out a Magic Compendium then I'd likely go for that. However, if the book has an alternative magic item creation method that is more stream-line and "explains" magic item creation more with new ideas and methods and less number crunching then I'd be very happy.

Such a system would replace the standard magic item mechanics in my own campaign. However, the book would have to have an section/appendix that "rewires" the existing magic items from the SRD, to truly be effective, as well as explaining how to do this so I can do the same thing with any official D&D magic item.

Spell Systems that can be used with core rules: Psionics and Magic of Incarnum cover this well. More alternative systems that don't come in underpowered would be great. Difficult to balance though.

I'm not huge into alternative spell systems. It's about balance, and the fact that the D&D Spell Compendium is something I want and I hate trying to convert spells into an alternate system. The last book I bought with alternate spell system concepts was Spells & Spellcraft from FFG. However, that book is 3.0 (I think), and I don't use it as much as I thought I would.

Artifacts: I think we have Relics from AEG and Necromancer is coming out with a book of Artifacts next year. No official book from WoTC on it though and an area that would've been easy to flood early on.

No, I don't think so. I'd rather have a "magic items" book that includes rules for creating artifacts in one system. Have to but two books would likely kill my interest in both books. (I might buy a lot of books but that doesn't mean I have tons of money. Actually, I have very little money month to month, right now.)

Halflings: Outside of Heroes of High Favor, I don't think there's been a lot of Halfling support. Perhaps combine it with Gnomes or another underappreciated race.

Race books are very hit and miss. I haven't bought a single "Races of" title from WotC. My main "races" book is Mythic Races (3.0) from FFG. (Love that book.) I also have Hammer & Helm, but I couldn't quite bring myself to buy the other Green Ronin race books.

I'd rather have a races book that is like Mythic Races, but for 3.5. I think it would be in Malhavoc's best interest (mine at least) to take the unique races from Arcana Evolved (which I'm not interested in) and Iron Heroes (if there are any) and put together a Malhavoc Races sourcebook that would be designed to be more generic (no AE or IH bits).

That would be a great book, IMO.

Epic Rules: Outside of the Advanced Player's Guide from SSS, I can't think of too many attempts to craft Epic Rules that were different than the core.

Yes, this is a definite must. Someone must take the core Epic SRD rules and rework them to mesh better with the 3.5 version of D20 System, Better rules for Epic magic and a more logical form of Epic progression. And please let characters and monsters advance the same way. And make sure the system builds upon the core rules, while taking the Epic campaign concept beyond just fighting tougher monsters.

A truly Epic campaign setting would be nice, but that should be a separate book, IMO. And not just a city, like Union. An alternate outer planes scenario where Gods are GODS and epic mortals are at the bottom of the tier, like starting over at 1st level. The players can become immortal, and, if their really lucky, maybe even become a TRUE GOD.

The planar residents are mind blowingly tough, and not all are as they appear to be. Planar Wars are common and the wars should be GODS vs. GODS, DEMONS vs ANGELS, DEVILS vs. ANGELS, DEMONS vs. DEVILS, and even ANGELS vs. ANGELS.

Epic planar dungeons are filled with dangers no mere 1st level fighter could ever imagine, or would ever want to. There should be Epic planar versions (including fulled advanced versions) of the most iconic d20 monsters and epic monster templates that warp not only standard advanced monsters, but the environments that those monsters come in contact with.

Epic traps that can wipe out armies, epic spells that can reform the planes or create entire new ones, epic magic items and artifacts that can destroy GODS or allow characters to steal the "essence" of divinity, epic cities of every shape and form that can shift from plane to plane, epic plants & animals that aren't just fodder/companions but part of a greater intelligence, and epic rules for time travel to alternate universes including twisted time magic, time creatures, and insanely powerful beings that the TRUE GODS even fear.

BWAH-HA-HA-HA!!!!

Uh, hmm, well, you get the point.

Cheers!

KF72

 

[jmucchiello]

It can be put into D&D, but many people I know don't look at the Thieves World book with the d20 logo and think, "Hmm... wonder how I can fit that into my campaign."

I have to agree with this assessment of Thieves' World. In fact, I'm surprised it has a D20 Logo on it. I mean magic is totally different from D&D magic in those books, IIRC.

I can't imagine a 4th edition being so far afield of 3.5 that someone couldn't build a new SRD compatible with it whether WotC authorized it or not. I doubt a big publisher would walk that legal line but in the realms of possibility, any changes made to 3.5 for a 4e would probably be derivable from open content. And thus, I suspect 3.5 stuff could be 4e compatible at the same level that 3.0 stuff is compatible with 3.5. (Oh, and ways I can imagine such a change I imagine as being far less fun than 3.5. )

 

[JoeGKushner]

The thing is, all the obvious books of that sort have been done. So are you guys really saying that you want them just done again? Never mind the reaction we'd get from distributors and retailers if we said, "Look, we did a new book of d20 spells and feats!" Hell, look at WotC's upcoming schedule. They are obviously struggling to find decent ideas for core books.

Well...

Spell Compendium: I don't see a struggle there.

Magic of Incarnum: Different, but struggle? If the Pyshic Handbook and other alternative magic systems like GoO upcoming book based on Slayers or Green Ronin's based on Black Company are struggling... sure.

Races of the Dragon: Stretching it maybe, but since most companies have hit even stranger races via Fantasy Flight Games Mystic Races, the furries in Arcana Evolved, the various mongrel races in Bastards and Bloodlines etc..., not really...

Red Hand of Doom: A fairly large adventure for fantasy d20 a struggle? Nope.

Complete Psion: Seems a no-brainer given the success of the series.

d20 Future Tech: Ditto.

Champions of Valor: Pages of feats, spells, magic items, PrCs, and substitution levels.

Player's Handbook II: Not a lot know of it, but based on the DMG II, a lot of potential in it. Not a struggle.

Player's Guide to Eberron: Core setting with a player's guide in the vein of the Forgotten Realm's Player's Guide? Not seeing a struggle there.

Moonseas: Updating an old bit of classic FR to 3.5? Nope, no struggle there.

Pact, Shadow, and True Name Magic: Love playing around with new systems.

Power of Faerun: Well, playing Shackled City in Oerth right now, but FR is my standard for most of my games and looking forward to seeing how much of this is mechanical as opposed to fluff.

D&D Miniatures Starter set: 10 figs and 2 of them non-randomized? I'll get a set just to see what's up with the rules and the d20 die! Good old War Drums!

The Keep of Fallen Kings: Haven't checked out the Fane of the Drow so have no idea of it's utility, but I loved the old D&D stuff with the maps and modules... what was it, Thunder Rfits or something?

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss (demons get the Draconimicon treatment). Super no-brainer. Probably not as good as the Green Ronin book but...

Monster Manual IV-yep the fourth volume and since there aren't a lot of monster books coming out these days...

Secrets of Xen'drik (an Eberron supplement), fleshing out the home setting.

Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords-(new combat options that sounds to me like it is in the mold of Iron Heroes but with magic-special maneuvers, spells and items that give characters near magical like combat abilities..) Finally, something for fighters! With tons of books of PrCs and other goods for mages, fighters often get the short end of the stick.

Dragons of Faerun (a Realms specific Draconimicon with Draconic personalities of the Realms included) Should be interesting and given the whole Year of the Dragon theme for '06 for WoTC, I don't see it as a stretch.

Which of these products speaks to you of struggle?