OGL; Is it working?

[eyebeams]

Which of these products speaks to you of struggle?

The ones with Roman numerals so you know that this is a sequel to another book. (Exception: Monster Manual series) The ones with "Races," on the front to evoke being part of a sub-line. Books like Moonsea, which update material WotC criticised TSR for printing as part of the supplement treadmill effect.

Many of these indulge in the "supplement of a supplement" mindset that the OGL was supposed to leave to third parties. WotC was supposed to have a slow release schedule of all core material and the odd, sparse softcover, but obviously Ryan Dancey was wrong, it didn't make them enough money, and they're running the same treadmill as before.

 

[WayneLigon]

Some things I've seen brought up in the thread, and my thoughts on them.

Can/Will the OGL go away? I have a hard time beleiving that something created cannot be done away with by some careful maneuvering of lawyers.

People will continue producing material for 3.5 after 4E comes out. I can't really beleive this would happen on a meaningful scale. There might be some small amount of 'support' as previously-contracted and paid-for manuscripts make their way through the pipeline but after that? Who's still making stuff for 2E? Even 3.0, now? Anyone besides perhaps some PDF publishers? I can't think of any.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The ones with Roman numerals so you know that this is a sequel to another book. (Exception: Monster Manual series) The ones with "Races," on the front to evoke being part of a sub-line. Books like Moonsea, which update material WotC criticised TSR for printing as part of the supplement treadmill effect.

So books that sell well in a sub-line shouldn't continue? Does that mean the Quintessential line should've stopped with the first book for Mongoose? That would go against the grain of common sense. "This is selling well! Let's stop!" Moonsea being part of the supplement treadmill? I think you're confusing the thousand settings of TSR vs updated material. Can anyone help on that with info either way?

Many of these indulge in the "supplement of a supplement" mindset that the OGL was supposed to leave to third parties. WotC was supposed to have a slow release schedule of all core material and the odd, sparse softcover, but obviously Ryan Dancey was wrong, it didn't make them enough money, and they're running the same treadmill as before.

Debatable. Some posts have suggested that WoTC thought that these 3rd party companies would go for the adventuers and support the d20 license that way as opposed to trying to take WoTC on head to head. When WoTC wasn't doing full color hardcovers for 192 pages at $30 (latter 160), third party companies could have their dwarf books. Once the official versions started to hit though...

And I could be way off here, but most people if they see four books on dwarves, are going for the official materail regardless of it's a supplement of a supplement. Which to me, still isn't 'struggling' as opposed to more of the same. Struggling would be some esoteric material like bringing back Amazing Engine.

 

[Nikchick]

Um, you bold Pramas' quote about "struggle" but ignore the bit where he says all the obvious books of that sort have been done. And, in keeping with the premise that Thieves World stuff isn't "real" D20 support because it's support for a campaign setting and not "core" enough, let's be fair and apply that standard to your list below as well.

Spell Compendium: I don't see a struggle there.

Obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Magic of Incarnum: Different, but struggle? If the Pyshic Handbook and other alternative magic systems like GoO upcoming book based on Slayers or Green Ronin's based on Black Company are struggling... sure.

So is Thieves World's different magic system ok to call D20 support then? Seriously, I repeat: obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Races of the Dragon: Stretching it maybe, but since most companies have hit even stranger races via Fantasy Flight Games Mystic Races, the furries in Arcana Evolved, the various mongrel races in Bastards and Bloodlines etc..., not really...

As you point out above, obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Red Hand of Doom: A fairly large adventure for fantasy d20 a struggle? Nope.

Good! Classic! Adventure support. Now I understood that WotC hoped that D20 publishers would provide adventure support because adventures were not the sorts of things they could profitably do in house, but I have also been hearing people calling for more adventures as D20 publishers have backed off producing them, so I'm not going to knock WotC for putting out adventures.

Complete Psion: Seems a no-brainer given the success of the series.

Obvious book of a sort that's been done several times. Sensing a theme here...

d20 Future Tech: Ditto.

D20 FUTURE support. Does this qualify as "core D20"?

Champions of Valor: Pages of feats, spells, magic items, PrCs, and substitution levels.

Totally obvious book of a sort that's been done oodles and oodles of times.

Player's Handbook II: Not a lot know of it, but based on the DMG II, a lot of potential in it. Not a struggle.

Obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Player's Guide to Eberron: Core setting with a player's guide in the vein of the Forgotten Realm's Player's Guide? Not seeing a struggle there.

Does Eberron qualify as "core D20" or is it one of those wacky campaign setting support books that only appeals to a subset of customers?

Moonseas: Updating an old bit of classic FR to 3.5? Nope, no struggle there.

Some people might read "updating old stuff" as "can't find anything that isn't totally obvious and been done to death already, let's dust off some classics for an update" but I personally don't take that cynical a view. Still, the argument can be made that dusting off the oldies for an update signals the kind of "struggle" for good material that Pramas was talking about.

Pact, Shadow, and True Name Magic: Love playing around with new systems.

Haven't these sorts of books already been done several times?

Power of Faerun: Well, playing Shackled City in Oerth right now, but FR is my standard for most of my games and looking forward to seeing how much of this is mechanical as opposed to fluff.

See my other questions regarding "core D20 support" vs. support books for campaign settings.

D&D Miniatures Starter set: 10 figs and 2 of them non-randomized? I'll get a set just to see what's up with the rules and the d20 die! Good old War Drums!

Yay! Miniatures! I absolutely do not consider D&D Miniatures sets "core d20 support," though, and nothing whatsoever to do with the OGL.

The Keep of Fallen Kings: Haven't checked out the Fane of the Drow so have no idea of it's utility, but I loved the old D&D stuff with the maps and modules... what was it, Thunder Rfits or something?

Hey, this one has potential. I like it.

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss (demons get the Draconimicon treatment). Super no-brainer. Probably not as good as the Green Ronin book but...

Dare I say it? Obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Monster Manual IV-yep the fourth volume and since there aren't a lot of monster books coming out these days...

Because all those monster books that have come out over the last five years still haven't given us every possible permutation? I think this is the very definition of a totally obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Secrets of Xen'drik (an Eberron supplement), fleshing out the home setting.

Eberron again. Whether this is "core d20 support" depends on how you judge Eberron, but I call it campaign setting support.

Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords-(new combat options that sounds to me like it is in the mold of Iron Heroes but with magic-special maneuvers, spells and items that give characters near magical like combat abilities..) Finally, something for fighters! With tons of books of PrCs and other goods for mages, fighters often get the short end of the stick.

In the mold of Iron Heroes. Been done, at least a couple of times.

Dragons of Faerun (a Realms specific Draconimicon with Draconic personalities of the Realms included) Should be interesting and given the whole Year of the Dragon theme for '06 for WoTC, I don't see it as a stretch.

Again with the campaign setting specific support books.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

But how many official Spell Compendium's for 3rd edition?

So is Thieves World's different magic system ok to call D20 support then? Seriously, I repeat: obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

Thieve's World's different magic system isn't available as it's own book is it? It's why I specifically mentioned Black Company's magic system, from what I understand, is getting it's own book, tweaked from what I hear, to work more directly with the base power levels of D&D. Please correct me if I'm heard wrong.

As you point out above, obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

But this is bad if it sells how?

D20 FUTURE support. Does this qualify as "core D20"?

Good point. My bad.

Does Eberron qualify as "core D20" or is it one of those wacky campaign setting support books that only appeals to a subset of customers?

I'd say it depends on the crunch/fluff ratio, in addition to it being an official campaign, which I'd imagine, and could be wrong, gives it a huge boost over any other campaign setting out there in terms of D&D people actually picking it up to use as opposed to a third party book that might have some game mechanics that people might be interested in.

Some people might read "updating old stuff" as "can't find anything that isn't totally obvious and been done to death already, let's dust off some classics for an update" but I personally don't take that cynical a view. Still, the argument can be made that dusting off the oldies for an update signals the kind of "struggle" for good material that Pramas was talking about.

True enough. Part of it we'll see played out in how well the Dragon Compendium and Spellbook Compendium's sell.

Yay! Miniatures! I absolutely do not consider D&D Miniatures sets "core d20 support," though, and nothing whatsoever to do with the OGL.

Got me again! However, as miniatures are pretty integral to D&D, I counted them on my list. I can easily see how they might not make everyone's. I buy a wide range of Reaper, Rakcham, Magnificent Egoes and others to use in my campaign so in my brain, I default it as d20 support. My bad.

Because all those monster books that have come out over the last five years still haven't given us every possible permutation? I think this is the very definition of a totally obvious book of a sort that's been done several times.

There are still a ton of older monsters that didn't get updated in the Tome of Horrors, and now that Tome's 3.5 version is PDF only, people will want more monsters. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a Fiend Folio II. And Necromancer must agree to a point as they have Tome of Horrors III coming out.

In the mold of Iron Heroes. Been done, at least a couple of times.

Disagree. Iron Heroes takes many assumptions about the default world and setting while if the D&D book holds to pattern, will be insertable into a standard D&D campaign setting and will include various pregenerated lairs, including maps and antagonist, in addition to NPCs and the usual assortment of fluff and crunch. If there are some fighter's books for D&D 3.5 that seek to change the system around that I'm not aware of, I'd love to hear about them. Iron Heroes ain't it though. It's a great OGL game for low magic d20 type games but isn't meant to be plugged into a d20 standard game.

In terms of campaign support, in looking at Champoins of Valor, some odd 70 pages, not counting PrCs, but the player options alone, I think, are game mechanic related. If it sells well, that says to me that yeah, people do want more feats, PrCs, spells, magic items, nifty game mechanics (in this case substitution levels) etc...

Going off the beaten path into some esoteric material is not necessarily the way to success. If it was, Nyambe and Northern Crown would have dozens of supplements in print form in the hobby stores.

Sometimes tried and true is tried and true for a reason.

But I suppose as '06 gets closer, we'll see what sells and what doesn't. It'll be an interesting year to watch.

 

[BryonD]

I'm unclear on where "been done before" became interchangeable with "not D20 support".

If it has been done before, but people still want more, then the people still want more part 100% trumps the done before part.

The TW magic system would absolutely be D20 support. (Assuming, of course a compatible power level, which not knowing for sure could cause people to not bother) But what percent of the book is the magic system? There seems to be this drive to force everything into a black and white mold. It isn't that way. If you wanted a new magic system for your D&D game, would you look closer at the book that was 10% new magic system or the book that was 100% new magic system?

As far as campaign settings go, it again is important to recall that the collective tendency of perceptive amongst buyers is the point. FR and Eberron are both built and viewed as completely default D&D. Like it or not, if you poll 1000 D&D gamers, more will say that they think FR offers stuff they can roll into their game than will say so for TW. Sorry.
I would make a guess that campaign settings such as Scarred Lands, Bluffside and, yes, Freeport, that were built with D&D in mind would be more perceived as "support" than a TW or Black Company.

My piercing insight leads me to believe that your sarcastic tone reveals an annoyance caused by the statements in this thread. I seriously am sorry about that. But being mad that someone said it doesn't do anything to change it. I certainly wish I had the slightest power to influence what people wanted in their game. But none of this is my plan. I'm just trying to answer a question honestly. Would you be more happy if people lied to you about what they wanted?

 

[Nellisir]

Debatable. Some posts have suggested that WoTC thought that these 3rd party companies would go for the adventuers and support the d20 license that way as opposed to trying to take WoTC on head to head.

That might have worked...except for Dungeon, the 800-lb gorilla in the adventure corner.

 

[Nikchick]

I'm unclear on where "been done before" became interchangeable with "not D20 support".

Joe and a few others seem to have been arguing two points, that there's "core d20" or "real D20" (which we've been informed our D20 materials aren't considered) and that the big list of WotC products Joe posted didn't represent the "obvious products that have been done before" stuff that Pramas was referring to. I was hitting on both of those points in one post, not at all trying to say that "been done before" is interchangeable with "not D20 support."

Pramas has said that we (we being D20 publishers in general, not just GR) are doing things like licensed products and products that are apparently considered "niche" because the obvious stuff has been done to death. In the not too distant past people overwhelmingly cried out "Who needs five different dwarf/fighter/feat books?!" and the D20 publishers listened and diversified and looked for interesting ways to stretch boundaries and give people interesting stuff.

Now people say "Those weird things aren't 'core'/'real'/D&D enough," seeming to be asking for those very same standard, obvious things that they'd been protesting the surplus of before. Do they want more, or don't they? We've done products of both stripes this year, and I'm not getting any kind of clear message from the market that one thing IS actually desired. The Advanced series? That's as generic, "core", and broadly applicable as we get. Yet there's no clear indicator that more of those books are indeed what people want. They're not overwhelmingly better than anything else, including Thieves World or Mythic Vistas.

I'm only being a little sarcastic and rest assured I'm not angry. I'm just protesting the idea that there's some clear message that players want X and if only companies would listen up and give it to them like WotC does (as if WotC is doing anything different from the top D20 producers) things would be all fine and good. Joe got my scorning voice because I feel the products he was listing off either fell into the "done already" or "note core support" categories, but only after he pulled out his own scorning that Pramas used the word struggle (as in "struggling to come up with compelling new ideas, as we can see from the surplus of concepts that fall into the 'obvious books that have been done to several times over' category."). And if the bottom line is that WotC is king of us all and whatever they do can't be compared to what D20 publishers are doing, like Eberron getting a pass as "core enough" but Black Company or Theives' World not just by virtue of the fact that they're WotC, the publishers of Official Dungeons and Dragons, why even talk about what they're doing in relation to the question of whether the OGL is working or not...

 

[Pramas]

The TW magic system would absolutely be D20 support. (Assuming, of course a compatible power level, which not knowing for sure could cause people to not bother) But what percent of the book is the magic system?

Well, that's the frustrating thing about this conversation. The magic system in the Thieves' World Player's Manual is all of 11 pages long (that's out of 192). It provides a new system for how magic is cast, but uses the core spells from the Player's Handbook. So while the way you go about casting was changed to reflect the way magic works in Thieves' World, the spells themselves are familiar to D&D players. In this way, it's a lot more "core" than Magic of Incarnum, for example.

The rest of the Thieves' World Player's Manual has things like new core and prestige classes, new feats and spells, new equipment--all very much core material-- plus rules expansions for backgrounds, cultures, curses, and more. In other words, it's really not too far away from Eberron in terms of ease of implementation and familiarity to the average D&D players.

Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary, which is coming out this week, is a big city book a la Waterdeep or Freeport. It's full of locations, history, and characters--the things that make a city tick. It also includes a whole section on using the book with just the core D&D rules, so if you don't want to implement the material in the Player's Manual, you can still get full use out of the book. That makes the city of Sanctuary even easier to drag and drop into your own campaign if you don't want to run a strictly Thieves' World game.

 

[Aaron L]

Well, I'l add my thoughts, even though theyre robably not much use. I, myself, even knowing whats what with D20 and stuff, didnt realize that games such as Thieves World or Black Company were balanced to be used with generic D&D. If thats the case, I now have interest in looking at them. (well, Ive always had interest in getting Black Company )

Perhaps I was confusing D20 and OGL games, but it wasnt clear to me that variant magic systems were balanced to be used alongside core D&D magic, or alternate fighting classes would be balanced to be used alongside Fighters.

In no way did I fear that these books would be inferior, but I wasnt sure that the rules presented would mesh seamlessly with my setting built with the PHB and mostly WotC supplements. So, I can definately see where the idea of D20 books being shunned because of thier labels comes from, because I am guilty of it myself, and I am here on messageboards about the D20 system, while no other gamer I know personally does any kind of research at all.

The Book of Fiends, I knew what I was getting. Thieves World, I thought was going to be a seperate game tweaked from the PHB classes and/or magic level.


I dont think that anyone is saying that these books are any "less" D20 in any way, or inferior in any way, but they are saying that people can percieve, say, Black Company as not meshing with the PHB as well as "generic feat book XX" If this isnt the case and things like the Thieves World alternate magic system could exist alongside the PHB magic system without unbalancing a core rules game, then Im real happy and will do my best to get those books pronto, but the fact that someone who is fairly educated about the subject can be confused about it means that average joe gamer who doesnt even know what the OGL is could be even more confused.