OGL; Is it working?

[GMSkarka]

It's quite possible they cancel each other out... how do you know?

You've (as in, the posters in our example, no one specific) got an audience. A portion of that audience is online and sees the style of posting. A portion of that portion will let the way you post affect their buying decision. So, these last folks, how do you measure them?

Obviously there is no way to guage "negative sales" in this or any other industry. What I'm saying is that sales have never dropped around times when I've been in flames with people, and in some cases, they've spiked higher. That's really the only hard data that I can look at. Extrapolate that over a decade, and you see a pattern where the extreme minority of customers to whom such things matter just simply don't seem to effect things as much as they might think they do.

But, more importantly, why don't the authors in question review how they're acting online, simply because it's the professional, polite thing to do. Even if it is a wash, and the customers gained by being an abbrasive jerk equal the customers lost... then why not act professionally?

Because I've found that there's *always* going to be someone who charges you with "acting unprofessionally" if you do something that they don't like, no matter how you act, so I'd rather be honest.

I've had an internet asshat flame me in the past as "unprofessional" because I used a Font they didn't like (No, I'm not kidding). It's not often that ridiculous...but it serves as a fun example.

Bruce Baugh once wrote a great essay on the topic (which unfortunately seems to have disappeared...I can't find it anywhere) where he said that too often, "professionalism" is just a hammer that disgruntled posters use to whack away at game industry folks that they just don't like. His summation was that being professional did not and should not equal "putting up with abuse." I tend to agree.

Or, to put it even more harshly, if how I say something has the potential to alienate an extreme minority who have no discernable impact on my sales, I can live with that.

 

[GMSkarka]

If you believe that then you are simply self-delusioned.
Your habit of attack and rudeness is well established.
There isn't anything I can do to make you stop denying it.
And the CERTAINLY isn't anything I can do if you actually believe your own propoganda.
But none of that changes the reality.

Well, I'm talking about the effect of people's opinions on sales.

You're the one calling me "self-delusioned" and that I'm spreading "propoganda."

I think most readers can see the reality of the situation here.


EDIT: Bryon, arguing with you is not worth risking a ban. I think the ignore list would help both of us in this situation.

 

[BryonD]

What I'm saying is that sales have never dropped around times when I've been in flames with people, and in some cases, they've spiked higher.

So do you engage in this behavior or not? I'm get confused at to which is your position?

Because I've found that there's *always* going to be someone who charges you with "acting unprofessionally" if you do something that they don't like, no matter how you act, so I'd rather be honest.

So therefore all claims of unprofessional behavior may be dismissed because some are trumped up. Which, by extension means that you can say anything you want and be as unprofessional as you want because, by the rules the claim will be dismissed.

I've had an internet asshat flame me in the past as "unprofessional" because I used a Font they didn't like (No, I'm not kidding). It's not often that ridiculous...but it serves as a fun example.

Well, then clearly all reasonable claims must be tossed out as well.

Or, to put it even more harshly, if how I say something has the potential to alienate an extreme minority who have no discernable impact on my sales, I can live with that.

That is certainly your right.
I still wonder about the chance happening that the polite and respected publishers have better recognition and sales........ :\

 

[BryonD]

Well, I'm talking about the effect of people's opinions on sales.

You're the one calling me "self-delusioned" and that I'm spreading "propoganda."

I think most readers can see the reality of the situation here.

EDIT: Bryon, arguing with you is not worth risking a ban. I think the ignore list would help both of us in this situation.

I'm certain you are correct, anyone who has followed your history here will easily see the reality.

If ignoring me helps, then knock yourself out.
Like I said before, I make no promise that unreasonable statements will go unchallenged. The ignore list would not serve that.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'm certain you are correct, anyone who has followed your history here will easily see the reality.

Moderator's Notes:
BryonD, you may not post again in this thread: your rude posts toward GMSkarka have forfeited that right. Next time I see you posting something rude toward him, you will earn yourself a temporary ban.

If you see him or anyone posting something that breaks the rules, report their post, and the mods will take a look at it. Otherwise, you may either respond to him in a civil, respectful, courteous fashion, or you may not respond to him at all.

Daniel

 

[Vocenoctum]

Bruce Baugh once wrote a great essay on the topic (which unfortunately seems to have disappeared...I can't find it anywhere) where he said that too often, "professionalism" is just a hammer that disgruntled posters use to whack away at game industry folks that they just don't like. His summation was that being professional did not and should not equal "putting up with abuse." I tend to agree.

Or, to put it even more harshly, if how I say something has the potential to alienate an extreme minority who have no discernable impact on my sales, I can live with that.

It's like I said in the "bad RPGers" thread. "PC" is the extreme of politeness, but "telling it like it is" is often just a mask for being rude. I'm not telling people to put up with abuse, but that's a huge gap away from getting into flame wars whenever someone even slightly disagrees. It's perfectly acceptable if you don't mind losing insignificant customers because you'd rather act a certain way in public, hopefully other publishers feel differently. As usual in these kind of discussions though, there's no winning. I understand your point that customers that will decline to purchase your products based on your behaviour are enough of a minority that you don't care. I'm not sure if you see my point at all, that any lost customers are still lost customers.

I work in a retail business, where I rarely tell off a customer. I'm sure plenty of writers and fans congratulate each other on "beating that asshat". It's still horrid customer service.

No, it's not the reason d20/OGL has slumped, but I'll tell you, if the industry is run by such juvenile attitudes toward customer service, it's just a symptom of deeper unprofessionalism, IMO. It's often said that RPG companies are run more by fan's/artists rather than businessmen, and I think this is a part.

 

[GMSkarka]

I work in a retail business, where I rarely tell off a customer. I'm sure plenty of writers and fans congratulate each other on "beating that asshat". It's still horrid customer service.

It has nothing to do with customer service, whatsoever....customer service is taking care of your customers by making sure that the service you provide or the product that they're purchasing from you is up to standards and that their needs are taken care of....as long as we produce material which is quality, and meets the needs of the gamer, and we respond appropriately when they have an issue that needs to be resolved involving that material and their purchase, then Customer Service is being provided, and well.

The problem is that gamers often try to apply their experience in retail to a non-retail business. Creatives are not providing customer service, any more than the Rolling Stones are providing customer service when they record a new album.

(...and no, I'm not saying that game designers are rock stars, just to cut that inevitable argument off at the root. I was using an obvious example to illustrate the point.)

 

[GMSkarka]

One more thing:

I'm not telling people to put up with abuse, but that's a huge gap away from getting into flame wars whenever someone even slightly disagrees.

I don't think anybody does that. Nobody in the game industry that I know of gets into flame wars "whenever someone even slightly disagrees."

Not even me, despite urban legends to the contrary.

To quote a great post by mythusmage in the poll thread on this topic:

I've met Sean Reynolds and John Wick. They were courteous, respectful, and good people. Because I was courteous, respectful, and did my best to be a good person. They are the same way online, as long as you are courteous, respectful, and do you best to be a good person.

But, if you're rude - either in response to what they've said or in your initial contact - they will respond in kind. A failing most people have.

I think that's an important point. (and he named two people who, like me, have a reputation among some circles for getting into flames). Nobody goes around getting into flames all the time. Usually, it's a matter of response in kind. Be courteous, get courteous back.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The problem is that gamers often try to apply their experience in retail to a non-retail business. Creatives are not providing customer service, any more than the Rolling Stones are providing customer service when they record a new album.

I'd say the difference is huge, given that RPG designers are also marketing and selling their product in many cases. There are plenty of companies that produce product in a direct manner, perhaps the problem with RPG's IS the "rock star" mentality. But, regardless, there are plenty of people that let a rock stars choice of presentation alter their choices in purchasing. I'm sure the musical companies are doing a lot more research than simply saying "Metallica may have lost fans with their Napster stance, but we're sure they gained as many as they lost", or at least they should be.

But yes, musical artists can afford to focus only on their producing, given that they have large companies doing the rest for them. RPG companies don't have the luxury of a large marketing department, and the fans of the material are often more knowledgeable about the company they're buying from.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I don't think anybody does that. Nobody in the game industry that I know of gets into flame wars "whenever someone even slightly disagrees."

Not even me, despite urban legends to the contrary.

It may not be every time someone disagrees, true. But often the response is out of proportion to the slight, real or imagined.

I think that's an important point. (and he named two people who, like me, have a reputation among some circles for getting into flames). Nobody goes around getting into flames all the time. Usually, it's a matter of response in kind. Be courteous, get courteous back.

Actually, it's a recurring matter in similar threads. Whenever the "is d20 dying" type threads come out, it's the usual suspects with the same arguements and the same attitudes. No matter how courteous, the responses devolve into the standard hidden knowledge claims.

Response in kind requires someone to start. If a poster doesn't have the basic respect that they should be polite, then it's bound to lead to flaming. If a publisher/ writer can't make his point without being defensive, then it's probably better that he simply doesn't respond to such threads. How often have you had someone ask why you didn't say something in a thread compared to how often has some "asshat" "provoked" you?

I'm not sure how else to make the point. Just because you think the consequences are inconsequential doesn't mean the action is worth taking.