[OGL Questions] Is Dungeons and Dragons a game?

[Aus_Snow]

Risking p***ing off WotC might not be the brightest thing to do, particularly when it's completely unnecessary to do that.

And really, in a spirit of gratitude and honesty, why not add some fine print at the back, which perhaps 99% of people won't even look at - let alone read - indicating that in fact, yes, you do owe a great deal of your inspiration, and well, games mechanics wholesale f'rex, to the designers of D&D 3e / d20 ?

A goodwill kind of thing, [il]legal ************ notwithstanding.

 

[Chaos Disciple]

How exciting! You're making an RPG with game technology circa 1975. You've got a game with characters, stats that define the characters, a mechanism for resolving conflict between characters, and a mechanism for determining the success or failure of actions the characters take.

What makes your game interesting? If you strip all the "copyrightable" parts of D&D out of D&D, you don't have much of a game left until you do the heavy lifting of making an all new game.

And who will want to play that new game? People already have thousands of game options. What makes yours more interesting than the available options? Why should people invest scarce time into learning new rules and new systems?

If you want to create a whole new RPG experience that varies greatly from the usual paradigm of characters, stories, and statistics-based conflict resolution, I say more power to you. I'm always interested to see the results of people's attempts at real innovation.

If your game is so similar to D&D that it essentially is D&D, you'll be restrained from distributing it, because you will be infringing on WotC's copyright. You may not think so, but you'll not be arguing with me, you'll be arguing with the staff attorney for a Fortune 500 company that gets paid to send cease & desist letters, and DMCA takedown orders all day long.

I think this whole thread is more about "sticking it to the man" and less about doing something interesting with RPG game design.

Ryan

This thread is not intended to promote my game designs but I can see how it is relivant to determine how it can avoid conflicting with copyrght infringment

First its a short document (50-100 pages) and absolutly 100% crunchy game mechanics (systems and methods only ofcourse)

The designs encompass and expands on the D&D game mechanics

These are just a few things the game does and I see no way to copyright them


-Mechanics for ability scores going over 100

-A standard character level system which is balanced and compatible with D&D but goes up to 300+ and can reflect the power simple creatures upto to extremly powerful beings like Gods with in the same game mechanics

-Compatible size catagories that is expanded to include microscopic to planet sized creatures and larger

-Balanced Combat System for Magic Psionics (Force powers) and Conventional fighting, along with advanced technology

-Also It has expanded the D&D game mechanics to be useful in any fantasy setting even those derived from comics movies or novels
So Playing Superheros or Futuristic Tech like transformers is covered


To me this game just an extremly improved version of the D&D game

I guess I could point out that Ive been designing this game for almost 3 years and I do have about 20 years experiance designing improvments for the D&D game (as a hobby ofcourse)


What I mentioned above is less then 10% of the improvments on D&D my game is currently capable of and your free to inform me on how the lawyers might respond to these improvments

Now I am certian people might think these could effect the things they love about D&D the game. But the designs dont change what has been before but simply adds alot of better material

I do not find these additons to the game mechanics of D&D to be in violation of US Copyrights and they could definatly improve the game experiance. So If ths is the case why would I need the OGL?


This is thread is meant to be "about doing something interesting with RPG game design" and nothing to do with "sticking it to the man"

But I have been acused of the later before

I hope I have cleared things up a bit


oh PS

Others Please do not reply to my game designs in a way other than how they relate to copyrights and the OGL because I dont want this thread to go off-topic

Thanks

 

[RyanD]

To me this game just an extremly improved version of the D&D game

Yup, looks like an infringing work to me. You've got problems, bub.

Ryan

 

[Chaos Disciple]

Yup, looks like an infringing work to me. You've got problems, bub.

Ryan

Obviously thats my opinion and I could easily avoid using referance to the trademark "Dungeons and Dragons" to avoid infringment.

Did you have anything else?

 

[Goblinoid Games]

If your game is so similar to D&D that it essentially is D&D, you'll be restrained from distributing it, because you will be infringing on WotC's copyright. You may not think so, but you'll not be arguing with me, you'll be arguing with the staff attorney for a Fortune 500 company that gets paid to send cease & desist letters, and DMCA takedown orders all day long.

I think this whole thread is more about "sticking it to the man" and less about doing something interesting with RPG game design.

Ryan

Hi Ryan!

Before I say anything else I want to tell you that I respect your work a great deal, and I am grateful to you and WotC for the OGL and the OGC that WotC has released.

Based on your comments above, I assume your quote is directly relevant to a game that seeks to emulate a system using terms without the benefit of those terms being provided by OGC under the OGL. As such, I'm curious about your take on OSRIC and similar efforts? Just curious, and I hope you don't think I am putting you on the spot. It seems like in these discussions people don't mention OSRIC...either because they have never heard of it or becasue maybe there *is* no definitive statement. Thanks for your feedback, in advance.

 

[Jim Hague]

Obviously thats an opinion and I could easily avoid using referance to the trademark "Dungeons and Dragons" to avoid infringment.

Did you have anything else?

What you don't seem to be comprehending here is that what you're proposing - an explicit expansion to D&D - is infringement. People've told you this half a dozen ways, including myself. At this point, I very much recommend that you get a lawyer.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

@ Chaos Disciple

Look, this thread got started with a question: "[OGL Question] - Is Dungeons and Dragons a game?" But when i clicked on it and read it, it turns out not to be about you asking questions. Its goes more like this:
You: "X is like that, isn´t it?"
Everybody else: "No, it isn´t. Take care."
You: "No! I disagree. My interpretation is right!"

Now, i could tell you that you implied compatibility of your game with D&D several times in this thread, and you are not allowed to do this without the D20 logo. And that you said several times that your protection against lawsuit was "... but i´m doing it for the good of the game!" and "... hey, i won´t tell anybody that i did it!" So, i could comment on it. But i won´t. Because you do not listen.

(Hmm, i HAVE commented by writing this, right?)

 

[Chaos Disciple]

What you don't seem to be comprehending here is that what you're proposing - an explicit expansion to D&D - is infringement. People've told you this half a dozen ways, including myself. At this point, I very much recommend that you get a lawyer.

I guess you missed my first post but its not possible to "infringe" if the material used is impossible to copyright; what im proposing is releasing set of game designes that would use only material not subject to copyright (game systems are excluded from copyright according to US laws http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html )

 

[Jim Hague]

I guess you missed my first post but its not possible to "infringe" if the material used is impossible to copyright; what im proposing is releasing set of game designes that would use only material not subject to copyright (game systems are excluded from copyright according to US laws http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html )

And what many, many people - like myself, a publisher that works with such things professionally every day - have told you is that you're incorrect. All the dissembling in the world doesn't change the facts, which have been presented to you.

You are, at best, treading dangerous and murky water - but do what you will. You're not looking for advice here, but some sort of rallying cry, I think. I reiterate my suggestion that you get yourself a lawyer; you are, I think, going to need it.

 

[Yair]

How exciting! You're making an RPG with game technology circa 1975.

Ryan, I'm hoping you'd take the time to comment on a little related question of mine. Since you were heavily involved in the drafting of the OGL, I have a question about it's phrasing and how it relates to the whole "are game mechanics copyrightable" aspect.

In Section 1d of the OGL, it says "Open Game Content means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines...". My question is - shouldn't that be "Open Game Content means the expression of game mechanics..."? If the publisher releases text designating the game mechanics and nothing else as OGC (and there are examples), what exactly is released as open game content in his work? It seems to me that if the mechanics [and not the expression] are designated OGC then they [but not their expression] can be freely used under the OGL; if they are not designated OGC, they [but not their expression] can be freely used under normal copyright laws in conjunction with an OGL work (barring perhaps marking them as Product Identity, so they can't be used with the OGL).

Why not? Do you mean you can't copyright the mechanics? Maybe so, but you can copyright the specific expression of those mechanics that you've written. I believe copyright is automatic, unless you release something into the public domain.

I believe so too.

Chaos Disciple, if you really want to put your game in the public domain, without copyright, to my knowledge you need to declare it as such. And you can't do that on your own, you need an independent party to certificate that it's copyright-free. This can be done for you by the good people of Creative Commons - just go here and fill out the form and they'll take care of the rest. I caution you that as these people are professional, they might very well decide that you don't have a copyright on your work and so will refuse to certify its release to the public domain.

If you don't do this, your work isn't in the public domain. It's still your copyrighted work, even if you don't include a proper copyright notice.

If you're not using the OGL, and you have a fansite, you should consult with WotC regarding what's okay to put on your fansite. I couldn't find their fansite policy anywhere, so if anyone knows, drop a link or document here.

Very much so. I'm gonna do the unthinkable and actually quote myself, in the hoppe that one of your comments will get a reply from one of the Wizards boys around this thread...

There are tons of fan sites publishing works unofficially and illegally. I find it unfortunate that WotC doesn't have a clear policy regarding fan work of this sort. It is clearly in the interest of every publisher that his work will get such treatment. In principle, even posting how I am changing the Forgotten Realms to suit my games is a derivative work in violation of copyright; so is publishing a story hour, running a Play-by-Post game... It boggles the mind that the very actions that create and maintain a vibrant fan community are illegal.

I thnk that producing my game without the desire to copyright it is just following the intention of copyright laws.(which state this cant be done).

I am a little confused why WotC lawyers did not advise them of this.

I would caution you not to trust your own judgment in legal matters over that of lawyers.

The intention of copyright laws is certainly not to allow you to copy and distribute derived content freely. It's the exact opposite. If you want to avoid their sting, use a copyleft license like the OGL.

The OGL is presented as a gift to the community but I think it just gets in the way; also could be taken as an attempt by WotC to claim something that can not be owned.

I find it hard to understand how this benifits the game community

I am not interested in using the OGL because it requires you advertise the OGL and WotC in your product and I dont want a commercial in my game; especially if its not legaly required.

The OGL definitely does extend several notions of product identity and creates new ones in ways that serve WotC and, to a lesser extent, publishers in general. To this extent, it allows WotC and other publishers to calim in stakes that they otherwise couldn't. However, this still benefits the game community as a whole, especially as it allows publishers far greater freedoms in publishing e.g. licensed works.

As for advertising WotC - let me get it straight. You're going to use WotC's intellectual property, such as the D&D game, as a springboard and base to build on - but you consider it immoral to thank or credit them with supplying this basis for you? If there is anything wrong with the OGL, IMO, is that it doesn't allow you to give credit enough, not giving credit where it's due is.... well, not my first choice.

WotC paid hard money to get good people to sit down and put third edition together. They definitely deserve credit for this.

Do you really think WotC is supporting the RPG community by taking legal action aginst people who just want to share thier ideas and help improve the game they love?

Generally, no. I would like to see the OGL affirmed by a court, though, regardless. Regardless, this isn't precisely what you're doing. There are lots and lots of people doing that around here, and WotC isn't suing anyone.

From your description of your work, CD, I would urge you to take a look at Upper Krust's work here on these boards - and currently being published under the OGL. His goals at least seem very similar to yours. I have not seen your work, but frankly UK's work is excellent and I sincerely doubt if you would be able to come up with something better on your own; he was aided by lots of ENWorlders and playtesters.