[OGL Questions] Is Dungeons and Dragons a game?

[Chaos Disciple]

If this were true, there would be no such thing as copyright lawyers.

awww WD you are faster my ability to edit

I did fix it though

 

[Scott_Rouse]

I may not be a lawyer but then agian the US copyright law is very clear and simple when it states there is no copyright available for games

Title 17 of the United States Code (the copyright law) is 296 pages making about the same size as the D&D Players Handbook.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf

 

[Chaos Disciple]

You're wrong.


It's not unique. Every 15 year old who gets on the Internet at some point figures out a way around some law and announces that they've turned lead into gold.

The smart ones stop when it's pointed out, repeatedly, that they're wrong and they're about to jump headfirst off the high-dive into a swimming pool with no water.

The ones that don't figure out in a hurry why everyone was screaming at them.

And, I know this is going to sound bad, but it has to be said: Unless someone else is going to write it, your free product is going to be almost unreadable and thus, unread.

Ok you obviously dont understand what Im proposing. This is not a profitable product and it is not a peice of artistic literature I would even try to own or copyright (this makes it very different than what the RPG industry produces) it is simply game systems which do not "infringe" on any copyrights

And thank god its not a work of literature because as you pointed out my word-fu is extremly weak.

 

[Chaos Disciple]

Title 17 of the United States Code (the copyright law) is 296 pages making about the same size as the D&D Players Handbook.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf

Scott I have no intentions of using (or violating) copyrights

All I have is game mechanics and im not sure those would qualify as a product right now


The copyright law I refer to is the one that shows games can not receive a copyright http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

"The idea for a game is not protected by copyright. The same is true of the name or title given to the game and of the method or methods for playing it.

Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles."




I titled the thread "Is Dungeons and Dragons a game" because if it is and Dungeons and Dragons is the title of the game it seems obvious the name and the game would not be allowed a copyright

But thats not important when it is so easy to avoid useing any names that could be trademarked.


This is the important part to me.
"Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles."



Feel free to actually comment on that last part of my post

 

[Ranger REG]

"The idea for a game is not protected by copyright. The same is true of the name or title given to the game and of the method or methods for playing it.

Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but an expression of that idea, be it in the form of written text or other media type, can be copyrighted.

IOW, don't copy their words.

You want to make game designing easier for you? Lock up Wizards's coyrighted books out of your sight, and out of temptation to make shortcuts.

 

[Glyfair]

The copyright law I refer to is the one that shows games can not receive a copyright http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.htmlThis is why i titled the thread "Is Dungeons and Dragons a game". Because if it is and Dungeons and Dragons is the title of the game it seems obvious the name and the game would not be allowed a copyright

It goes beyond this. There are many definitions of certain words. In this case the question you want to ask is "Is Dungeons & Dragons legally considered a game?"

I believe the answer would be that parts of D&D are a game. The legal quagmire ais determining which elements are a game and meet the legal definition of being a "idea, system, method, device, or trademark material." That's a tall order to answer without taking it to a lawyer, and without legal precedent it's all guesswork.

The one that's known about is the legal wrangling over Monopoly, with Parker Brothers finally coming out on top. That's a big legal mess, and comes down to trademark law protection and copyright law. Yes, Parker Brothers has copyright protection on some elements of Monopoly.

 

[Chaos Disciple]

Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but an expression of that idea, be it in the form of written text or other media type, can be copyrighted.

IOW, don't copy their words.

You want to make game designing easier for you? Lock up Wizards's coyrighted books out of your sight, and out of temptation to make shortcuts.

I read all RPG game books for their game mechainics and I have no trouble determining what is simple game systems and would be creative fluff which could be subject to copyright.

I do enjoy the work of all RPG designers including those at WotC and I think all game rules atleast try to improve the game experiance for the the RPG community

 

[bodhi]

These are just a few things the game does and I see no way to copyright them

The specific text you use to describe your additions are, by default, copyrighted by you. The ideas aren't, but the wording is.

-A standard character level system
-Compatible size catagories

Do you use the terms "fighter", "wizard", "cleric" or "rogue"? Do you use the SRD size terms? Do you use the SRD wording for the various skills and feats? Or have you re-written everything?

I do not find these additons to the game mechanics of D&D to be in violation of US Copyrights and they could definatly improve the game experiance. So If ths is the case why would I need the OGL?

Im not sure if you design rpg's jim but if you do then identifying the very clearline between a crunchy game system and peice of copyrightable creative fluff is pretty easy to figure out. (at least it is for me)

The other night, on an episode of "American Inventor", one of the pitches was for a board game called (IIRC) Scrambler 10, which pretty clearly ripped off Scrabble (also owned by Hasbro!), but used numbers rather than letters. The judges turned him down, and tried to explain the legal difficulties he faced. He, also, felt compelled to stick to his guns.

Here's the thing. It's easy for you to figure out what you think is or isn't covered. But it's not up to you. If it actually came down to it, it'd be up to a judge. Maybe the judge would agree with you, and maybe not.

From http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html, which you posted, "For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game, or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container, may be registrable." While the mechanics of the D20 system may not be covered, the text describing such very well may be, and IMHO, is covered. So, unless you've managed to write your expansion without using any of the text found in the SRD, I suspect a judge would find against you. And even if you did manage to pull it off, I still think it'd be a coin toss.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but an expression of that idea, be it in the form of written text or other media type, can be copyrighted.

IOW, don't copy their words.

Put it like this.

The basic mechanics aren't copyrightable. So, for example, the idea that you "roll two dice, add them together and move that number of squares clockwise around the board" is a non-copyrightable mechanic from Monopoly.

But the words are copyrightable. So, for example, you couldn't use the names of Monopoly squares (not being American myself, I don't actually know what these are in America).

If they're the same as UK ones, you could probably have a square called "Go", a square called "Jail" or a square called "Free Parking"... having all three would potentially be an infringement.

See?

So going back to D&D, you could use the die rolling mechanics which aren't copyrightable, but using the terms "Armour class", "Hit points", "Alignment" and "Saving throw" within the D&D senses of the words risks infringement -- as does using things that are obviously derivative of these words.

And the whole problem is completely unnecessary, because if you use the OGL, you can automatically use or modify these terms however you wish.
_________________________________________

Incidentally there's an assumption in this thread is that US law and rules of procedure automatically apply to everyone, which I've found is something Americans usually assume.

In a remarkable and surprising omission, the OGL does not specify choice of law. So if it so happens that the laws of, say, South Africa or Sweden or Vatican City happened to be more favourable to your interpretation, then all you need is a collaborator in one of those countries and a bit of savvy.

 

[Chaos Disciple]

The specific text you use to describe your additions are, by default, copyrighted by you. The ideas aren't, but the wording is.


Do you use the terms "fighter", "wizard", "cleric" or "rogue"? Do you use the SRD size terms? Do you use the SRD wording for the various skills and feats? Or have you re-written everything?

As far as copyright on my words; well Im pretty sure my grammer is so bad nobody would want to steal them but my ideas (especially with game mechanics) are usually very good and it is a shame I cant copyright those. This thread is an attempt to explore how to get the ideas out to the community without creating any trouble.


I hope its clear to most of you that I should avoid trying to make it a literary work and ofcourse not to profit from it.


I do not use the standard class names.
Also it is a very short peice of work (50-100 pgs) I dont see any problems with re-writing it if changing names of anyting was required.


There are no feats but it lists 90 skills (with new names) and a way to add skills as you need them. This gives the game the potential for an infinite number of skills.