OGL What is to happen?

[GMSkarka]

How is that not the case already? Aren't you really putting that in our hands to begin with? If you write stuff that sucks, we won't buy it.

Reliance upon consumers to make purchasing decisions, thereby affecting our income, is a given.

Reliance upon a miniscule and motivated fraction of those same consumers to dictate which companies get to use a marketable logo, which could make a drastic difference in sales potential, is quite another kettle of fish.

One is a producer-consumer relationship; the other crosses the line into a trade organization, albeit one comprised of individuals with no stock in that trade.

More simply put: the response of the market is ALREADY in the fan's hands. How we are allowed to operate within that market should not be.

 

[Scribble]

Reliance upon consumers to make purchasing decisions, thereby affecting our income, is a given.

Reliance upon a miniscule and motivated fraction of those same consumers to dictate which companies get to use a marketable logo, which could make a drastic difference in sales potential, is quite another kettle of fish.

One is a producer-consumer relationship; the other crosses the line into a trade organization, albeit one comprised of individuals with no stock in that trade.

More simply put: the response of the market is ALREADY in the fan's hands. How we are allowed to operate within that market should not be.

Maybe in your opinion. My response is simply make good stuff.

When I see a product now there's really no difference in my eye between one with or without the d20 logo. It means nothing. Any shmo can slap it on.

What makes a difference is if I know the company has released good material in the past, and reviews of said item.

If the d20 item had to be earned by quality product, it will mean a bit more to me.

 

[GMSkarka]

Oh, believe me -- I'm confident in Adamant Entertainment's quality.

My only concern is the idea of critical business decisions placed in the hands of fans -- I've seen far, far too many fans with grudges to make me have confidence in that sort of process, and that's not even getting into the fact that "one man's trash is another man's treasure." Tastes differ -- and who gets to use the D20 logo should not be a matter of taste.

WOTC was very careful in its construction of the existing licenses. I see no reason to alter how they operate.


The funny thing is, most game companies that have been successful with d20-related products started off using the logo, and then, once their reputations were established, largely stopped using it. So this whole discussion is sort of odd, when you think of it along those lines.....

 

[Scribble]

Oh, believe me -- I'm confident in Adamant Entertainment's quality.

My only concern is the idea of critical business decisions placed in the hands of fans -- I've seen far, far too many fans with grudges to make me have confidence in that sort of process, and that's not even getting into the fact that "one man's trash is another man's treasure." Tastes differ -- and who gets to use the D20 logo should not be a matter of taste.

Well sure... But I'm not saying leave it in the hands of ONE fan... (Unless that fan is me, because my decisions are always right anyway )

WOTC was very careful in its construction of the existing licenses. I see no reason to alter how they operate.

Because it didn't really work as well as it should have?

The funny thing is, most game companies that have been successful with d20-related products started off using the logo, and then, once their reputations were established, largely stopped using it. So this whole discussion is sort of odd, when you think of it along those lines.....

Well yeah... Because at this point the d20 logo is for the most part pointless. (Another reason it should change...)


But hey man, in the end, I'm just some dude on a message board... You're out there in the trenches so to speak... so hats off to ya!

 

[Nellisir]

The funny thing is, most game companies that have been successful with d20-related products started off using the logo, and then, once their reputations were established, largely stopped using it. So this whole discussion is sort of odd, when you think of it along those lines.....

Well that's sort of the nub of the issue, isn't it? Those publishers stopped using the d20 license because its cost outweighed its benefit. The d20 logo has, in the eyes of the consumers (and I would guess the publishers), lost nearly all of its value.

So WotC's question is likely what can they do to encourage 3rd-party publishers to continue publishing D&D compatible material, and how can they identify that material to the general public? Can they restore some value back to the d20 logo?

 

[Yair]

There already is a way for a small group of fans to vote on the best products and publishers and grant them the use of sell-boosting logos - the ENines. It works, too, I believe, to judge by the publisher's pleasure in attending the ceremonies and their pride in the rewards.

I don't think the people of WotC are so removed from the industry that they will need to set up specialized procedures to identify the luminaries of the field. Just hanging out with the fans on boards such as this one, and playing D&D on their own, they will come to identify the quality companies. I doubt the key people in Wizards are unaware of Expeditious Retreat Press, or even the smaller Inner Circle Games - companies with low output and sales (certainly by WotC standards), but that have consistently produced very high qualtiy works. I absolutely don't believe they are unaware of the big players in the market, like Green Ronin or Goodman Games. So really, the most sensible thing to do is to invite those quality companies that they are made aware of. There is no need for a specific process like a test or public vote (although a set of in-house criteria should probably be established, and a person assigned ad-hoc to make sure the suggested company meets them).

 

[Greatwyrm]

To me this means that publishers have to get a licenses to print 4th edition materials, fans have to print on Gleemax and their materials can be pillaged by WOTC at will and the current state of the OGL/SRD/d20 is up in the air.

So, do you think I am wrong or right? What have you seen elsewhere to counter this opinion?

In posts on WotC's boards, their 4eOGL FAQ (how's that for initials?) says:

1. There will be an SRD on a free site.

2. There will be NO fees for the OGL.

3. The state of the d20 license (which only let you put the d20 logo on your product and say "For use with Dungeons and Dragons") is still undecided.

On your other notes, I think you're confusing "will be able to put their stuff on Gleemax" with "must only put their stuff on Gleemax". I'm not aware of anything indicating "must" is how it is, although I freely admit I don't know everything.

As far as pillaging the stuff you put on Gleemax, if you put anything on WotC's current boards, you give them permission to it anyway, if I recall correctly. And if you're using the OGL in the first place, you can put it anywhere you like and WotC can still take it and print it, just like any of us can. Just look at the "Monte Cook Presents the Year's Best d20" or something like that.

 

[Nellisir]

On your other notes, I think you're confusing "will be able to put their stuff on Gleemax" with "must only put their stuff on Gleemax". I'm not aware of anything indicating "must" is how it is, although I freely admit I don't know everything.

I'm pretty sure that WotC wants you to put your stuff THAT USES THEIR IP on Gleemax. So if you're not using their IP (no FR, no Planescape, no Ysgard, no illithids, no duskblades, no warlocks), keep going as you are. If you ARE using WotC's IP, they'd really like you to move (your site, I guess) to Gleemax. Reading between the lines, WotC might get more vigilant about fan sites that use WotC IP after 4e comes out.

As far as pillaging the stuff you put on Gleemax, if you put anything on WotC's current boards, you give them permission to it anyway, if I recall correctly. And if you're using the OGL in the first place, you can put it anywhere you like and WotC can still take it and print it, just like any of us can. Just look at the "Monte Cook Presents the Year's Best d20" or something like that.

Yes, but (just to be a pain) Monte did actually ask for submissions and permission to reproduce some closed content, plus the open content. But the substance is correct; anything OGC can be reproduced by anyone anyways.

 

[Greatwyrm]

I'm pretty sure that WotC wants you to put your stuff THAT USES THEIR IP on Gleemax. So if you're not using their IP (no FR, no Planescape, no Ysgard, no illithids, no duskblades, no warlocks), keep going as you are. If you ARE using WotC's IP, they'd really like you to move (your site, I guess) to Gleemax. Reading between the lines, WotC might get more vigilant about fan sites that use WotC IP after 4e comes out.

Oh, as far as WotC's IP goes, ya they can pretty much insists on whatever they want. Its theirs, after all. I think there's just a common misconception about all fan stuff that would be OGL compliant being forced to go to Gleemax. As much trouble as people had understanding the OGL in the first place (not pointing to anyone here), I can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Scribble]

There already is a way for a small group of fans to vote on the best products and publishers and grant them the use of sell-boosting logos - the ENines. It works, too, I believe, to judge by the publisher's pleasure in attending the ceremonies and their pride in the rewards.

I don't think the people of WotC are so removed from the industry that they will need to set up specialized procedures to identify the luminaries of the field. Just hanging out with the fans on boards such as this one, and playing D&D on their own, they will come to identify the quality companies. I doubt the key people in Wizards are unaware of Expeditious Retreat Press, or even the smaller Inner Circle Games - companies with low output and sales (certainly by WotC standards), but that have consistently produced very high qualtiy works. I absolutely don't believe they are unaware of the big players in the market, like Green Ronin or Goodman Games. So really, the most sensible thing to do is to invite those quality companies that they are made aware of. There is no need for a specific process like a test or public vote (although a set of in-house criteria should probably be established, and a person assigned ad-hoc to make sure the suggested company meets them).

This is pretty much what I meant by let the fans decide.