Okay so you hate Dragonlance, how can the current designers improve it?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I would agree that some DL novels are really good and some are really bad. I don't read much of the current storyline stuff so I'm not an authority on that. But some of my recent reads include the following:

- The Kingpriest Trilogy: Awesome! Tells the story of Istar up to and including the Cataclysm. An absolutely excellent read with a wealth of background material and ideas for DMs and players alike. The story provides a lot of info on what happened to the Towers of High Sorcery. It also ties in nicely with the original Chronicles (e.g. showing how Fistandantilus' spellbook and the Disks of Mishakal got to Xak Tsaroth).

- The Ergoth Trilogy: Another excellent series. Although a different style than the Kingpriest Trilogy, this series describes the ancient, pre-Cataclysm nation of Ergoth and really nails down the byzantine nature of court intrigue at the time. This is a pretty much stand-alone series, with no other DL knowledge necessary to enjoy it.

- The Chronicles: though I haven't reread these recently, I plan to soon. What more can I say, the story that started it all!

- The Elven Nations Trilogy: another must-read for any DL DM. The story provides a wealth of information about the founding of the different elven nations. Also ties in with Ergoth.

- The Icewall Trilogy: written by Niles, these are excellently written novels that explore the history of Icewall in a very interesting way. It provided the basis for an entire campaign story-arc that took our campaign into the depths of the Icereach to the ogre undercity of Winterheim.

As you can see, I prefer reading about DL's history as opposed to the current storyline (which just doesn't do it for me). A lot of the one-shot novels that I've read, to be honest, haven't been very good. It seems the trilogies are better thought out and explain a whole lot more. I can't begin to tell you how much my DL campaign has benefitted from reading these novels. I've read the original FR trilogy and they're a joke in comparison to the DL novels (I dunno what subsequent FR novels have been like). I highly recommend that any DM running a DL campaign at the very least read up on novels that relate to whatever region/aspect of DL you plan to run.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

A quick note on the eccentricities of DL (e.g. tinker gnomes, kender, the Heroes of the Lance, dragons, etc.). A lot of people get all caught up in these aspects of DL and "can't see the forest for the trees", so to speak. In my 3-4 year running DL campaign, the party has yet to meet a tinker gnome. And kender have been encountered in isolated incidents. The party has never met any of the Heroes of the Lance and those characters have had zero direct impact on the party. The only person of prominence they have met and interacted with was Dalamar. Yes, dragons are a theme of DL. But that's to be expected and the party seems to enjoy encountering dragons of all different colours (but, even then, fighting dragons has been rare). The party has had only minor encounters with draconians to date (though that will change soon!).

My point is that DL is not the stereotypes that some people seem to think it is. The world is what you make of it. The worst is people who say they don't want to be railroaded by playing the Heroes of the Lance. C'mon folks, that was like 20 years ago. DL has moved so far beyond that, yet people still can't seem to see past it. The only railroading that's going on is players and DMs who can't seem to function without the gaming company railroading them adventures and campaign rules. Make it up!!! Make DL your own world!!! Take what you like and leave the rest!!! That's what creativity and RPGs are all about!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Personally, I like Dragonlance for the simple fact that it doesn't (or didn't) bow to RPG conventions.

Dragonlance is, by and large, "about" the Heroes of the Lance, their triumphs and tragedies, their essentially preset adventure and the interesting things that happened along the way.

It's the ancestor of Final Fantasy and the descendent of the Lord of the Rings, not the descendent of Greyhawk and the ancestor of Eberron. Player-created PCs don't drive its world - regardless of their actions, Raistlin still fights Fistandantalus, Terra is still the only half-esper, Frodo still carries the ring. It's not (or wasn't) terribly apologetic about this.

Pen n' paper RPGs aren't a terribly good medium for this kind of entertainment. But they are a versatile medium, and they're big enough to encompass it. Some - I daresay many, considering the consistent success of Dragonlance - people enjoy exploring a storyline or acting on its periphery.

I'll never understand why devotees of standard pen 'n' paper RPGs wish ill upon this alternative.

Now, the actual setting of Dragonlance and the progression of its particular metaplot don't greatly interest me, so it's not one of my favorite settings. I just respect its willingness to defy What An RPG Is - and the fact that its defiance birthed a wonderful related genre in electronic games, which a good medium for it.

 

[Klaus]

IMHO, the problem with DL as an RPG setting, for me, is the same suffered by Star Wars and LotR: the largest, most important, most epic story ever for these settings have already been told. Whatever the PCs do, they'll always be second bananas to Raistlin, Luke or Aragorn.

Also, this whole "second Cataclysm" and new departure of the gods just cheapened the original story. It's like writing a new LotR trilogy where Sauron forged *another* Ring...

 

[Kai Lord]

What makes you think you haven't /already/ seen the best version of Dragonlance -- and that version still wasn't good enough to convert the unbelievers?

Well, to put it bluntly, because its a known fact that your statement isn't true. A number of "unbelievers" have announced right here that they jumped on board, or back on board of Dragonlance gaming as a result of the new 3.5 edition by Sovereign Press.

This thread is about what more it would take for the rest to give it a try.

For the record, I think that the current incarnation of DL as a game setting is the best yet, but even my group has tinkered with some of the official "canon" to better suit our particular tastes.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'll never understand why devotees of standard pen 'n' paper RPGs wish ill upon this alternative.

I don't think some gamers wish ill upon this, it is just that trying to copy that style. As I said before -- and many posters laters -- it's kinda hard to run typical adventures without feeling unimportant in that world. Even a GM could hardly churn up a legendary adventure of similar DL Novel quality every month.

Other gamers truly don't care, as long as they got to "live" in the world, it doesn't matter if they're making a contribution to it, though at certain point later in the campaign (reaching high-level) they would want to.

For the few Dragonlance GMs that can duplicate the "novel" feel in their campaign, I salute them.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Dragonlance is, by and large, "about" the Heroes of the Lance, their triumphs and tragedies, their essentially preset adventure and the interesting things that happened along the way.

Ugh. That is so fundamentally NOT TRUE that I don't know where to begin. DL has NOT been about the Heroes of the Lance since the classic series so long ago. They haven't even re-created 3E versions of the original series. Yet people STILL think that it's all about Tanis and Raistlin and Sturm, etc., etc., etc. It's not. And it hasn't been for quite some time. Any real DL fan would know that.

 

[M.L. Martin]

Unfortunately, what brought the spark back to Dragonlance for me was the SAGA System and the Fifth Age--a fun new system to play around with, dragons that were back to being dragons, and a setting that felt more open and flexible than DL had ever been. Most of that, though, was repudiated by fans and has been plowed under or denigrated in the past few years. What I've heard of the post-WoS era has failed to appeal to me, and my gaming dollars are spread thinly enough that I'm reluctant to pick up even the products for the eras I do care about.

Plus, the more I delve into the moral and philosophical underpinnings of DL, the more problems I find with them.

 

[Kai Lord]

Plus, the more I delve into the moral and philosophical underpinnings of DL, the more problems I find with them.

Heh, I still find that its a cool enough setting after houseruling that the official "gods" aren't really gods and the metallic dragons only pretend to be good....

 

[M.L. Martin]

Heh, I still find that its a cool enough setting after houseruling that the official "gods" aren't really gods and the metallic dragons only pretend to be good....

Please get out of my head.

[Anti-Canon mode engaged]
(And I think there are actually a handful of truly good metallic dragons--Silvara, Sunrise, and Mirror come to mind. Most of them, though, are rotten to the core, as can be seen by them handing their eggs over to the Dark Queen out of greed and spite at their patriarch barring them from the world . . . Ack, got to hide from the Renegade Hunters again.)

Matthew L. Martin