Okay so you hate Dragonlance, how can the current designers improve it?

[Geoff Watson]

A quick note on the eccentricities of DL (e.g. tinker gnomes, kender, the Heroes of the Lance, dragons, etc.). A lot of people get all caught up in these aspects of DL and "can't see the forest for the trees", so to speak. In my 3-4 year running DL campaign, the party has yet to meet a tinker gnome. And kender have been encountered in isolated incidents. The party has never met any of the Heroes of the Lance and those characters have had zero direct impact on the party. The only person of prominence they have met and interacted with was Dalamar. Yes, dragons are a theme of DL. But that's to be expected and the party seems to enjoy encountering dragons of all different colours (but, even then, fighting dragons has been rare). The party has had only minor encounters with draconians to date (though that will change soon!).

My point is that DL is not the stereotypes that some people seem to think it is. The world is what you make of it. The worst is people who say they don't want to be railroaded by playing the Heroes of the Lance. C'mon folks, that was like 20 years ago. DL has moved so far beyond that, yet people still can't seem to see past it. The only railroading that's going on is players and DMs who can't seem to function without the gaming company railroading them adventures and campaign rules. Make it up!!! Make DL your own world!!! Take what you like and leave the rest!!! That's what creativity and RPGs are all about!

But all those stereotypes ARE Dragonlance. Without the annoying joke races, and the 'heroes', etc, it would just be a generic fantasy setting.

Geoff.

 

[tetsujin28]

What does it need? Let's say there was no limit to what the current designers could do to improve the setting, what would you recommend?

I hate to be Mr. Super Negative, but there really isn't anything they could do to get me to like it, and still have it be Dragonlance. There's a lot of DL fans out there, and for them the setting works fine. I have other choices.

 

[CRGreathouse]

But all those stereotypes ARE Dragonlance. Without the annoying joke races, and the 'heroes', etc, it would just be a generic fantasy setting.

So... what you're saying is that it's beyond hope?

 

[painandgreed]

I was turned off of DL so early on I don't have a clue as to what half of you are talking about. I'm not even sure if there were novels before I cursed the name of DL. The work seemed really good and the modules top notch. I'd buy them and reuse them for something else with no problem. What turned me off on DL were Kender and the other wacky races as well as the early railroading of the modules that had use trying to kill the main heroes as they showed up to save the day. As others have pointed out, a setting is what you make of it, however, If you don't use the wacky races and various NPCs that make up a great deal of what DL is about, what point is there of using that setting over another? I bought the 1E hardcover book and read it. It was pretty good and had lots of neat ideas, however, everybody that actually wanted to play a DL game, did so so they could play up the elements I hated the most. If you ever made an "Ultimate DL" version, you'd just end up with another generic setting that lost the old fans and would be rejected by the new. So ya, DL is beyond hope as far as a quick fix goes.

 

[Banshee16]

I hated 5th Age SAGA.....but personally I've been thinking that Sovereign Stone has been doing an awesome job with some of the recent books. It was a shaky start with the 5th Age sourcebook, though I really liked the DLCS. Both the monster book, and the Wizards of High Sorcery book were quite good. I picked up War of the Lance, but haven't read through it yet.

I'd love to see a "Races of" type book, kind of like Races of Faerun. And a new sourcebook to update Taladas to 3E. That was such a great campaign setting....I'd love an update on it. What is the kingdom of Thenol doing? What happened to the Rainward Isles? What about the Minotaur League? Tonnes of cool stuff to look into.

Oh, and don't let them blow up the planet anymore....just have regular-style adventures campaigns for a long time, that don't involve massive updates to the setting, all the gods leaving and coming back etc. After a point, it starts to stretch credulity.

I'd say fewer kender and tinker gnomes, but when it comes down to it, that's a personal choice, and I acknowledge that many people like those races. I just don't feature them very heavily when I run Dragonlance. But Knights of Solamnia, Minotaurs, Irda, Qualinesti and Silvanesti are very popular.

A few inconsistencies I'd love to see resolved and/or things changed:

1-Elven lifespans. DL was written as a setting in 1st Ed. when elves lived 2000 years. Throughout the written histories of the world, many of the elves who are mentioned (Sithas, Sithel, Kith-Kanan, etc.) lived upwards of 1500-2000 years. Yet for 2nd and 3rd Ed. DL elves have basically used the core rules...which is an average span of 550.

2-Elves should be taller. In all the original adventures they elves were tall, like 6' area...Porthios, Laurana, and Gilthanas were all tall. But again, in 2nd and 3rd Ed. DL was set to the default, so now the tallest ones were 5'5", and Laurana, at 5'6", was an absolute mutant, as an example.

3-I'd love to see some form of prestige class for Irda changer adepts and changer savants.

4-Either some rules, or plotline, or something, where the Ogre Titans become permanent...or at least some of them don't need the potions etc. to keep their powers.

5-Nzunta.

6-The population figures for Ansalon in the 5th Age sourcebook seem to low for the size of land. But this is a somewhat common problem in fantasy settings. Eberron and Midnight have the same problem, I think.

7-Inclusion of useful mechanics to assist in roleplaying the more "down-to-earth" nature of the setting. Heroes get frightened of creatures like dragons and undead and such. I would think that fear or horror rules, like what were used in the old Ravenloft setting might assist with this.

8-Bring back Taladas. Time of the Dragon was an awesome box....I'd *so* go for a 3E adaptation.

9-The Minotaurs should be tougher. I think the DLCS really stripped them down to bare bones to make them playable at lvl 1. Maybe it's just because I'm a DM, and don't have to worry about playing characters from level 1, but I just find it takes away from how dangerous they feel.

10-Clarify the whole WoHS can only use a staff or dagger thing. It doesn't work very well with 3E, or even standard DL in 2nd and 1st Ed. where you had fighter/wizards. Is a fighter/mage a renegade to be hunted down and killed for using a sword? Does he just get regarded with stares of exasperation by his brother magi? Or does the rule only apply to single-classed wizards?

Anyways, those are some of the things on my wish list. Admittedly, I'm not playing or running the setting at the moment, but I have been starting to pick up several of the 3E rulebooks for it, and I've really liked what you guys are doing. Seems to get better with every one.


Banshee

 

[Cam Banks]

Ack, got to hide from the Renegade Hunters again.

You can relax. We really aren't out to get you. Seriously.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Banshee16]

They just did this. It was called the War of Souls. Seeing it was the third great coflict, I can do without a fourth anytime soon.



I think you are showing your prejudices and preferences here.

DragonLance is not a plane hopping setting. In fact, heading off to the Abysss is verbotten in stock Krynn mythology. If you are a Planescape fan - DL is simply not designed for you.

And I might add; it's very much a case of vice versa. Speaking from experience - if you are a DL fan, Planescape is generally the setting you hate the most.

There is little point trying to make DL more like Planescape; and even less trying to make Plansecape more like DL. I think the two settings are at the extreme and are rather polar opposites as far as WotC/TSR settings go.

I disagree. This argument captures some of the strengths *and* weaknesses of both Dragonlance and Planescape.

So DL characters shouldn't be going to the Abyss. And have a LE Greater goddess living in the Abyss, which is chaotic evil. Planar travel isn't supposed to be allowed.

And for 99.9% of the population, it isn't. But Planewalkers are, by nature, exceptional. From a planar's perspective, it is prime-plane hooey that people can't get to the planes from Krynn. And Takhisis living in the "Abyss" is a misunderstanding. So it is possible to visit.

They're not incompatible...it just depends on whose viewpoint you're looking at it from.

Personally, my Planescape campaign featured a major plotline whereby the Knights of Takhisis who had survived the battle with Chaos, but been trapped in the Abyss when Takhisis stole the world, found their way onto the planes, and tried to take over the Harmonium from within. It was a pretty successful campaign, too.

Banshee

 

[Dragonhelm]

You can relax. We really aren't out to get you. Seriously.

We aren't?


I guess I've remained silent for long enough on this thread.

I think we can agree that Dragonlance is a setting that has a good following, but is not appealing to everyone. You can say that about any setting, really.

Kai Lord's question wasn't "Why do you dislike Dragonlance?" Rather, he asked how Dragonlance could be improved, and how it could be more appealing to a broader audience.

That's a tough question. Unfortunately, it does have some past history and setting elements that have turned the setting off to some people (i.e. races, SAGA rules/Fifth Age, etc.).

Now, I do think there are steps being taken in the right direction.

Firstly, the novels are going in a new direction. The setting is fresh again, and some of the plot elements of the past that loomed over the setting are gone (i.e. Heroes of the Lance as well as the battle between Paladine and Takhisis).

Second, the game line. Sovereign Press has done an amazing job with Dragonlance. I've often felt that TSR made some poor choices where DL was concerned. Why they put out Otherlands rather than sourcebooks on more well-established elements of the setting is beyond me. Sovereign Press has done an excellent job, with sourcebooks such as Towers of High Sorcery and War of the Lance.

If there ever was a time to get into DL beyond when it originally came out, now is it.

How could it be better still?

The game world needs to be set up so that players can adventure and not fear messing with the overreaching plot, or meeting up with a novel character.

The characters need to be in the spotlight. Key of Destiny does good with this, as this module series puts the player characters in the spotlight and they are having an impact on the world. More of this would be good. Perhaps with a Living Dragonlance game?

Also, I think that having some good support for showing alternate ways of portraying the so-called "annoying" races might be good as well. Many people already have a formulated opinion, but it would be good to see some alternates that may be more appealing. A person may not like a true kender. Would he be more inclined to play an afflicted kender? Maybe a player who dislikes tinker gnomes would get a kick out of a mad gnome.

Plus, how cool is Nightshade Pricklypear? Kudos to Margaret Weis for putting a kender nightstalker in Amber and Ashes.


So there's some thoughts from me on what's going right, and where things might get better still.

How can Dragonlance be more appealing to you guys, while still keeping it Dragonlance?

 

[Cam Banks]

So DL characters shouldn't be going to the Abyss. And have a LE Greater goddess living in the Abyss, which is chaotic evil.

Krynn only has three outer planes - the Abyss (evil, and negative energy plane), the Dome of Creation (good, and positive energy plane) and the Hidden Vale (neutral, and source of the elemental planes). Each is vast and mutable, containing many aspected realms specific to each deity, but considered to be within one alignment-centred plane.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Banshee16]

Krynn only has three outer planes - the Abyss (evil, and negative energy plane), the Dome of Creation (good, and positive energy plane) and the Hidden Vale (neutral, and source of the elemental planes). Each is vast and mutable, containing many aspected realms specific to each deity, but considered to be within one alignment-centred plane.

Cheers,
Cam

Did not several modules feature both the Ethereal and Astral planes as well? Then there's the Gray, or whatever it's called, where the Huldrefolk live..

The point I was getting at was that from the perspective of a native of Krynn, there are only 3 planes. But that's not to say that in a Planescape campaign, planars don't know differently .

But, the thread's about DL, not PS, so I won't go any further than that.

Banshee