[Olympic][b]WE WERE ROBBED!!![/b]

[Storm Raven]

Re: French admit pressure.

The French judge just admitted to being pressured to vote for the Roooskies.

They (not sure if "they" are male or female) admitted to a vote swap for a later event.

This is why I don't watch the Olympics..

Oh well.

And people said that corruption in figure skating couldn't possibly affect the reputation of the Olympics as a whole.

 

[Pielorinho]

From Merriam-Webster

SPORT: 1 a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in

(I think we can agree that definition 2 is the one we're talking about in relationship to the Olympics)

ATHLETIC: 2 : characteristic of an athlete; especially : VIGOROUS, ACTIVE

GAME: 3 a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other

Let's look at Scrabble. Recreation? yes. Game? yes. Athletic? no.

Let's look at Poker. Recreatoin? yes. Game? yes. Athletic? no.

Let's look at ditch-digging. Athletic? Possibly. Recreation? not if you're sane. Game? no.

Let's look at hockey. Recreation? yes. Athletic? yes. Game? yes. IT'S A SPORT!

Let's look at figureskating. Recreation? yes. Athletic? yes. Game? yes. IT'S A SPORT!

Let's look at beauty pageants. Recreation? yes. Game? yes. Athletic? no.

Let's look at shuffleboard. Recreation? yes. Game? yes. Athletic? probably not; if it is, it could be a sport.

*****************

These guidelines seem pretty clear to me, although at their edges they may start to break down. But figureskating is clearly athletic; it's clearly engaged in for recreation; and it's clearly competitive. It's central to the definition. Scrabble, poker, beauty pageants all fail terribly at one of the key parts of being a sport: namely, they're not athletic.

Now, there's at least one additional consideration. The Olympics are biased toward spectator sports: sports that are fun to watch, and that have a fair number of people who are willing to watch the competitors. Again, figure skating is a great example of a spectator sport.

*****************

Storm Raven, I think you have a fairly strong argument when you focus on the corruption of the skating judges, although this may be my ignorance about the judging system popping up (I have a much better grasp of linguistics than I have of Olympic history). When you argue that the skating judge system is so corrupt that it should be retired from the Olympics, I think that's worth considering.

But given that we have a working definition of sports that includes what people expect it to include, and excludes what people expect it to exclude; and given that your definition excludes what many folks expect it to include and includes what everybody expects it to exclude; I think that's not so strong an argument.

Daniel

 

[Ashtal]

My warning was to everyone - I should have made it clearer.

Please: Let's drop this side-argument. I don't want people feeling like they are being picked on, either. Let's just agree to disagree and keep it on the Skating Pairs Controversy, not about what is sport, what is not, and what should be in the Olympics.

Please? Otherwise we'll spend all day trying to get the last word in, and upping up the nasty-notch as we all get testy.

 

[Storm Raven]

From Merriam-Webster

Let's look at Scrabble. Recreation? yes. Game? yes. Athletic? no.

Compare it to archery. How athletic is archery in comparison to scrabble? That is where your attempt to categorize stuff breaks down.

[Snip]

Let's look at shuffleboard. Recreation? yes. Game? yes. Athletic? probably not; if it is, it could be a sport.

It is no more or less athletic than curling. A beauty pageant is no more or less athletic than a shooting match. Both curling and shooting are part of the Olympics. How do you justify excluding beatuy pageants if you allow skeet shooting?

These guidelines seem pretty clear to me, although at their edges they may start to break down. But figureskating is clearly athletic; it's clearly engaged in for recreation; and it's clearly competitive. It's central to the definition. Scrabble, poker, beauty pageants all fail terribly at one of the key parts of being a sport: namely, they're not athletic.

Of course, that is clearly not one of the qualifications currently used to determine inclusion in the Olympics, so it is not particularly incicive of a point. Beauty pageants are no less athletic than range shooting. If range shooting is in the Olympics, then there is no real cogent argument that can be made for keeping beauty pageants out.

Now, there's at least one additional consideration. The Olympics are biased toward spectator sports: sports that are fun to watch, and that have a fair number of people who are willing to watch the competitors. Again, figure skating is a great example of a spectator sport.

This may be just you bias based on what you are shown on television coverage, but a large proportion of Olympic events are incredibly dull as spectator sports. Shooting, archery, and curling to name a few are dull as dishwater to watch. Fencing is really uninteresting to watch for most people (since it is over so fast in high level modern fencing). Many other events are really boring to observe. Television networks may give the impression that the Olympics is about spectator sports, but that is because they pass by the dull sports.

Storm Raven, I think you have a fairly strong argument when you focus on the corruption of the skating judges, although this may be my ignorance about the judging system popping up (I have a much better grasp of linguistics than I have of Olympic history). When you argue that the skating judge system is so corrupt that it should be retired from the Olympics, I think that's worth considering.

The problem is that every judged sport is subject to this same sort of problem. Figure skating is just the most egreigious example of the problem, but these sorts of shenanigans crop up in almost every judged sport on a fairly regular basis. Figure skating is more corrupt, but that is a question of degree. Figure skating is also higher profile than, say, rhythmic gymnastics, so the arbitrary actions of judges in that sport get commented on less than the arbitrary actions of judges in figure skating. That does not mean it doesn't happen in those sports, it just means we don't hear about it as much. It does happen though (in Atlanta, one of the judges in one of the rhythmic gymnastic events was the mother of one of the competitors, how's that for an open invitation to corruption).

But given that we have a working definition of sports that includes what people expect it to include, and excludes what people expect it to exclude; and given that your definition excludes what many folks expect it to include and includes what everybody expects it to exclude; I think that's not so strong an argument.

The main problem is that the current standards used to include events in the Olympics does not match up to the standard you say is used. The standards right now would include scrabble, chess and shuffleboard as valid candidates for inclusion in the Olympics. I'd suggest that you should reevaluate your stance on this score in that light.

 

[Tsyr]

My warning was to everyone - I should have made it clearer.

Please: Let's drop this side-argument. I don't want people feeling like they are being picked on, either. Let's just agree to disagree and keep it on the Skating Pairs Controversy, not about what is sport, what is not, and what should be in the Olympics.

Please? Otherwise we'll spend all day trying to get the last word in, and upping up the nasty-notch as we all get testy.

Gomen.

Consider me bowing out of this thread.

 

[Tsyr]

Sorry, I was going to bow out, but I'm going to make one (non inflamitory) post first.

Both archery and acurate shooting are actualy very athletic. It may not seem that way from watching them, and it certainly doesn't compare to... say... pole vaulting or something, nor does it require the intense, lifetime reigiem of training, but they do actualy require a high degree of physical skill. I do both, and have competed in both, so I do know a little of what I speak.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Re: French admit pressure.

And people said that corruption in figure skating couldn't possibly affect the reputation of the Olympics as a whole.

I just want to point out, and then I'll leave it alone, that basing that statement upon an extemely small sample (1 message board poster that we know of) doesn't help your argument.

 

[Pielorinho]

My warning was to everyone - I should have made it clearer.

Sorry, Ashtal. I'll drop it.

Daniel

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: French admit pressure.

I just want to point out, and then I'll leave it alone, that basing that statement upon an extemely small sample (1 message board poster that we know of) doesn't help your argument.

Well, you did say it couldn't happen, and at least for that guy, it did.

And now I'll drop it.

 

[Ashtal]

*deep breath*

ANYWHO. As for the French Judge 'confessing' - I haven't seen it yet in any of the larger media (CBC, CNN, MSNBC). Not that I'm not discounting the possibility, but the story hasn't appeared to break everywhere yet. Granted, in the one article I did read, no one named the source, so for all we know it could be just rumor. That said, if it is, I imagine the French Judge will be issuing a statement to the contrary.

But since we've seen foot waggling to indicate what they were scoring to each other before, I still wouldn't be surprised.

Hey, they should sit in little cubicles, kinda like what they do in Jeapordy. Blinders on either side, perhaps with in-set video displays that would give them access to the video of the performace from all the angles like we have when we sit down to watch it (if they don't already). Another suggestion I heard on TV was making it so that the judges didn't know what event they would be judging until they sat down for the competition.

Still, it's heartwarming to see the response and support from the Americans regarding this issue. We appreciate it, guys.