D&D General On Grognardism...

That does posit the question - is Grognardism specific to the 70s-to-early 80s gamers, or is it a rolling generation?

For my part, I think grognards are indeed a specific time, whereas "old school" is a continually moving thing. Someone (younger than I) could call BAB and ECL old-school, but you couldn't have a 3e grognard.

Grognards are just the previous generation. "But I was the one that used to be cool!"
 

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I'm over there a lot, I dunno. He's called me various names over the years (I told him however much of an a-hole I am, he'll always be a thousand times bigger a-hole, which he seemed to take in good spirit). He rants against games I like. He conflates White Wolf 'Storyteller' Railroading with Forgeist Story-Creation games. He basically seems harmless to me, though. I guess I'm fond of crazy Libertarian types. I don't see any sign of harrassment or stalking. I guess his vitriol could be considered personal abuse if you're of a sensitive disposition. It comes across more as a schtick than malevolent to me, though.

(If this post comes across as S'mon donning the Mook Uniform of Lawful Evil Alignment, well, I think we should all just get along).
No this post comes across "I'm a straight white guy who lived a pretty safe life and never actually been threatened or harassed in a serious way, and thinks people who have been are 'sensitive'". Whether that's better or worse than being a Hobgoblin I leave as an exercise to you. This is a consistent problem with people defending extremely abusive people - "it's just a joke" "grow a pair" "man up" "it's just a schtick" "it's funny man" - there literally isn't anything, no matter how incredibly vile, that someone hasn't defended like that. I genuinely mean there is nothing. You be as vilely racist, misogynist, homophobic and generally nasty as you like, even commit violent crimes (esp. against minorities) and someone will defend it like that.

I'm not saying you are "evil" or whatever, but I am saying, if you say naughty word like that, you should take some time to self-reflect, because it's an incredibly privileged position. One I share, being a tall, well-educated, straight white male, but one I'm aware isn't universal.

If you do something like knowingly attempt to get around a block in order to send insults/abuse to someone, you're a stalker. A low-grade stalker, but that naughty word is is stalking, and creepy. Likewise, if you attack someone personally, that's personal abuse. It doesn't matter if you think it's "funny" or "a schtick", or if your buddies high-five you because they're think it's "funny" or "a schtick", it's still personal abuse.

So yeah, there's that. I strongly suggest you reflect on actions you think are "funny" might appear to other people, and not merely label them "sensitive", for being different to you.

This is all terribly ironic to the point of being blackly humorous in the context of D&D, because essentially what you're writing off as "a schtick" is the same kind of bullying that people used to inflict on D&D nerds back in the day.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
We could also call such folks "Grognard absolutists," with a relative perspective also possible - as you say re: 3E. Relative to new players who started up with 5E, 3E players are grognards, or at least groggy.

Focusing on just the age or what edition the player started with misses an essential element of grognardism - the grumbling. Grognards are the "all you kids get offa my lawn" of gaming. Not just old, but scornful and aggressively uninterested in things that aren't of their preferred era.

Grandpa voice: "Back in my day, we didn't need no newfangled damageonamiss dragonborne taking 20 with their cantrip feets! If my Fighting Man wanted to scratch his crotch, I told the DM (none of this Game Master nonsense - we played in a proper dungeon, don't you know) and they had me roll, and if it came up a critical failure, well then old Sampson OrcRender put his eye out, and we liked it that way!"

That's a grognard.
 
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I think the problem with page 42 is that 4e made improvised-action damage generally worse than just using an at-will power. I think that was a big mistake. The improvising player should almost always be rewarded. I was tempted to make the improvised actions 1/round minor actions.
I'd disagree here that improvised should always be better. To quote the GURPS rulebook "If sand in the eyes always worked then fighters would leave swords at home and carry round bags of sand".

And in terms of actual play I normally use the normal damage types for "additional damage" - in other words when the improvisation involves pushing someone into the way of danger or something that can be done on top of attacks so it's basically free damage. For clever one-off tricks I use the "limited damage" which is definitely stronger than even striker at will attacks at least until some point in Paragon (it should have been rebased when they updated to MM3 math).
 


el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
As for Pundit, even if one were not to consider he himself toxic

I never heard of this person, did a little googling and if I found the correct site, I have to say anyone who uses the term "SJW" unironically sets off my. . .


flashing lights sirens GIF by SundanceNOW DocClub
 

S'mon

Legend
As for Pundit, even if one were not to consider he himself toxic (I'm gonna leave that for others to decide), he welcomes and embraces people who are outright white nationalists. You know who I'm talking about.
He always bans Nazis from his site when they start spouting off, so no I don't know who you are talking about. Maybe someone who's been wrongly slandered as a white nationalist. He's all into the Classical Liberal/Libertarian political stuff (which can certainly be taken too far - so can anything).
 

That does posit the question - is Grognardism specific to the 70s-to-early 80s gamers, or is it a rolling generation?

For my part, I think grognards are indeed a specific time, whereas "old school" is a continually moving thing. Someone (younger than I) could call BAB and ECL old-school, but you couldn't have a 3e grognard.
I think with D&D, grog has a more specific meaning because we've got a bit of a generation gap, and whilst I think it goes later than that, it's unlikely many people born in the 1990s or later qualify as grogs.

And as @Umbran says the groaning is a key part of it. If you don't complain about modern games or newfangled things, you might be old enough to qualify as being a grog, but you aren't really one. I've yet to see a TT gamer under about 35 do the "back in my day!" groaning dance. I have seen people under that age advocate for some pretty old-school games and go on about how cool they are, but that's like kids rediscovering Phil Collins and stuff, they're not groaning that modern games are bad - especially as a lot of the best OSR games are, well, really modern!

And will there be, like, 5E grogs one day? Probably. But I think it'll be quite a while. I don't really see any 3E or 4E grogs, for example.
 


He always bans Nazis from his site when they start spouting off, so no I don't know who you are talking about. Maybe someone who's been wrongly slandered as a white nationalist. He's all into the Classical Liberal/Libertarian political stuff (which can certainly be taken too far - so can anything).
I'm not talking about Nazis, I'm talking about his personal behaviour towards certain people who have disagreed with him - and not even over politics. If you want to play the "See No Evil, Hear No Evil..." game and defend abusing people, groups of people, and so on as "a schtick", well, no-one can stop you, but it's a very naive and self-serving viewpoint, in my personal opinion.

Also I'm loving that "well if the Nazis actually say Nazi stuff he bans them!" is the bar here. That's some real barrel-scraping!
 

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