D&D 5E On Healing and Broccoli

Stormonu

Legend
Why can't we have a sliding scale?

Pure Healing on one end, Pure Damage on the other.

Someone wants to heal and damage, put it somewhere on the scale inbetween.

And I agree; we can make damaging spells interesting, why can't we do the same to the healing spells too? There's been some attempts in the past (Aid, Regenerate) but if we recognize it as a design goal, I'm sure the designers can come up with healing spells that are far more interesting (though I wouldn't get rid of the "bland" ones either - a vanilla Cure spell has its uses).
 

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Orius

Legend
Personally, i like my veggies, and enjoyed the role of healer.

I wonder if there's a correction there.

I'm neutral on vegetables. Some just have a nasty bitter aftertaste I don't like at all, but there's enough other vegetables to make up the difference. I actually like broccoli, even plain they're good, but great with melted cheddar cheese (probably even better with bacon bits). I like them best raw though, my preferred vegetable consumption is through salads.

As for clerics, they're kind of a meh class. I like my wizards instead, and maybe an occasional fighter. As for best clerics, I'd go with 3e CoDzilla. The specialty priests of 2e had a good amount of variety but they're not technically clerics.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'd like to see an array as well- vanilla spells, lay on hands, AoE channeling of divine power (like that 3.5 feat) and so forth.

I'd even like to see Healing Surges stick around...but only in GREATLY pruned amounts and uses.

And, of course, clerics who can't do it at all...
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The specialty priests of 2e had a good amount of variety but they're not technically clerics.

They differed in name, yes, but they were the class used to make up the hierarchy of faiths. They were just a subclass of Priests, like specialist mages were subclasses of wizards.
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
Sorry for my completely-miss-the-point-of-the-analogy diatribe, but some of us just don't have the taste buds to handle veggies.
Not even sweet potatoes???
One of the interesting things I've noticed in the playtesting with my group so far is that the best way to avoid Cleric healbot is to make sure the cleric does his share of killing. Radiant Lance has really been a terrific boon for mitigating the need for healing since it gives a cleric something useful to do (especially at lower levels) pretty much any time.
Oooh I hated the laser beam Cleric from the first playtest.
 



Libramarian

Adventurer
I think of the sweet potato as basically the potato 2.0, better in every way. Sweet potato french fries are delicious.

Getting back to the cleric, I am all in favor of kicking butt and smashing some skulls in addition to healing, but there has to be some coherence to the cleric idea. Any cleric no matter the flavor should have some essential connection to the life/death cycle and some devotional/self-sacrificial aspect to their class personality. I think all clerics should have the same basic cure/cause wounds spells and turn undead.

Stuff like "set things on fire so the fire god gives you some healing" stretches the class too far. And frankly is kind of crude and silly.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I've been thinking a bit about healing in 5e, and I've noticed that there's a tendency (especially, it seems, among 4e fans) to treat it like a side of vegetables you're served with dinner. Nobody likes it, the theme goes, but it's part of a balanced meal, so they try to mix our peas in with our mashed potatoes (heals as pseudo-minor-actions so you can attack in the same round). JUST healing would be too boring!
Well, for prettymuch the whole run of D&D, there's been this perception that the cleric is a boring band-aid class. Critically important, but dull. The class the last person to roll up a character gets stuck with. The newb or 'girlfriend' class (yeah, that's sexist, so was the game 30 years ago) so the un-involved player could make a contribution without having to pay much attention nor take any fun away from the serious players.

3.0 first tried to change that. It did it by making Cure spells 'spontaneous,' that way the Cleric didn't have to memorize whole slates of cures, he could have other things on tap in case they came up. It also gave the Cleric more 'buffs,' including self-buffs, though it made physical-stat-boosting and other buffs you'd cast on the party melee types much more efficient.

3.5 tweaked things only ever so slightly. Made some very efficient buffs a little shorter duration, added mental (thus save-DC setting) stat buffs available and equally efficient.

CoDzilla was entirely possible in 3.0, but it turned virtually inevitable in 3.5 - all just from trying to make the dull Cleric class a little more desireable.

4e also tried to make the healer role a little more enticing. To start, they changed the name to Leader. It didn't fool anyone - the one thing /every/ 'leader' class had in common was a 2/encounter heal! - but I guess it didn't hurt. It also shifted the resource burden of healing from the leader to the individual character. Everyone had their own ample supply of healing surges, so the Cleric no longer had to prep whole slates of Cure spells or end up spontaneously casting most of his spells as Cures.

The Cleric could still be a very effective healer - with the introduction of the 'pacifist' build even a dedicated healer with a wide range of healing options, but it could be more than that, if desired. Other leader classes took healing as more of a side-line and concentrated on buffing or affecting the action economy.

But, all those people who like to play healers might enjoy seeing a broader variety of heals in the game. To my mind, it's those more varied heals that should be domain spells for the Lifebringer domain. Cure X Wounds should be relegated to Channel Divinity so that all clerics can toss it in on top of a melee attack or orison.
Well, in 4e, your Cleric, specifically, could choose to take utilities like Cure Light Wounds, and powers that allowed surges or restored hit points or granted temp hps, or to largely avoid all such, limitting it's healing to the obligatory Healing Word (enough for the party to get by, certainly).

Clerics, in particular, had a lot of different ways to handle the healing aspect of their role. They could use Healing Word to trigger a surge and give additional bonus healing. They could optimize to increase that bonus. They could choose other powers to 'trigger' surges for their allies. They could use 'pacifist' powers that don't directly damage enemies but grant allies non-surge healing. They could give allies temporary hps as pro-active healing. They could grant regeneration. They could give up their own hps or surges to heal allies. They could set up healing that triggered when allies inflicted damage. They could heal off-turn with immediate actions.

Other leaders weren't without variety in how they handled healing, either. Artificers could manage surge use among their allies as well as simply trigger surges. Warlords could heal with their mere presence. Bards could maximize between-combat healing.


So, there's already a lot for 5e to draw upon when it comes to jazzing up the 'healer' role.
 

Grydan

First Post
Getting back to the cleric, I am all in favor of kicking butt and smashing some skulls in addition to healing, but there has to be some coherence to the cleric idea. Any cleric no matter the flavor should have some essential connection to the life/death cycle and some devotional/self-sacrificial aspect to their class personality. I think all clerics should have the same basic cure/cause wounds spells and turn undead.

Stuff like "set things on fire so the fire god gives you some healing" stretches the class too far. And frankly is kind of crude and silly.

(Emphasis added.)

Why?

This is one of the heaviest bits of setting that gets embedded into the system in D&D, and I simply do not like it.

The Cleric is the servant of some god (well, not originally, as there wasn't actually a mention of any gods whatsoever in the original class description way back when, as far as I can see), but who says every god cares about the life/death cycle?

Say I decide to use the Norse pantheon in my setting. Thor is the god of, among other more well known domains, healing. So it makes sense for a cleric of Thor to go about healing people's wounds (though he should also be bringing the thunder...).

But the cleric of Týr? He's the god of law and justice and the sky and a whole bunch of other things, but not a single one of them is healing, life, or death. Why should any of his followers gain those particular gifts? How would he bestow them, if they're something Thor or someone else is in control of?

How about if I'm using the Olympians? Now, a few of them are hooked into that whole life/death cycle to be sure, but healing folks is Apollo's turf. Hermes might escort you to the afterlife, but he's not going to give anyone the ability to make return trips. Aphrodite's got procreation covered, but that's making new life, not keeping those already here around. Hades rules the dead, but he's generally not all that keen on the idea of giving anybody back once he's got them. Ares' domain will have you killing or getting killed, but healing and resurrection are off the menu.

Most real-world pantheons that I'm aware of included a god or goddess who was the patron of healing. D&D-specific pantheons generally leave this out because they all post-date a system that assumed that clerics of all deities were healers.

The idea that all clerics are healers and able to turn the undead traces back to the fact that the sources of inspiration used to create the class were monotheistic rather than polytheistic, and were put together to represent one specific archetype, not the entire category of "divinely empowered representatives of the gods". They're armoured priests from the Crusades combined with elements from Hammer horror vampire flicks with a few other random bits from various other sources. The fact that the published settings the system was used in, even from the earliest days, embraced polytheism (whether it was planned or not) created a tension that I don't think has ever been fully resolved.

Making all clerics healers isn't a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

It creates unnecessary limitations on the system, the settings, the DM, and the players.

It's almost as bad as making all healers clerics.
 

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