On Magic Users and Darts: What's Up With That?

[Nagol]

Speaking of how play experience would vary depending on which rules you ignored, there were actually attacks of opportunity in 1e. They weren't called that, but the 3e rules largely codified and simplified the disparate mentions of the idea in the various places in the rules. In particular, you could not just "leave melee" in 1e. If you were in base to base contact with a foe - in melee with them - then if you tried to disengage from melee (break contact) you drew a free attack from every figure you were in contact with. And it wasn't just "an attack", it was an attack on the rear of your figure, which meant you were flat footed, couldn't use a shield, and the opponent got a +4 to hit you. Nor was there a 5' step in 1e, so breaking out of melee in 1e was painful to the point of being something you just did not do.

If you ignored that, then yes, missile weapons do get A LOT more effective, and hands down you should always use darts. The dagger advocates are taking a compromise position that if you do get stuck in melee, at least you have some chance of fighting back. And I can see that point, but for the first 3 levels or so it's still a terrible position to be in, and if you aren't rescued from the situation by a nearby fighter you are probably dead dagger or not.

I'd have to double check my math, but from memory a Str 10 Dex 10 1st level M-U hits better and does more expected damage punching than with a dagger against pretty much any AC opponent.

I didn't ignore the pummeling table and that probably skewed things.

 

[Celebrim]

That's why I wrote mostly, but not entirely, a 90s thing.

IME, most people coming from the 70s/80s had the image of the MU as using a dagger, or a staff.

My impression is that the rate of fire advantage of darts was generally overlooked by inexperienced players. The potential to optimize your low level M-U by choosing to be proficient in darts was overlooked in favor of more obvious weapon choices, and the fact that coming from Basic you'd have no awareness of the dart or its advantages only made that issue more common place. By the 1e Unearthed Arcana though, the rate of fire issue was highlighted in the rules directly and indirectly, and more people were looking to optimize character builds. Thus, darts became more and more common, and magical darts likewise became more and more common (including game breaking examples like Darts of the Hornet's Nest, that could potentially end encounters on their own). By 2e, this was now known community lore, and so started to become a trope.

 

[Celebrim]

I'd have to double check my math, but from memory a Str 10 Dex 10 1st level M-U hits better and does more expected damage punching than with a dagger against pretty much any AC opponent.

I didn't ignore the pummeling table and that probably skewed things.

Sure, and if you unadvisedly use those broken rules then fighters do more damage punching and grappling than they do using swords. Of course, if your DM is a true RBDM (and I am), then he'll run zombies and orcs with those rules until you start begging for mercy, and then your whole attempt to optimize using badly written rules will be table ruled out of existence.

 

[Nagol]

Sure, and if you unadvisedly use those broken rules, and if you also ignore 'weapon versus to hit modifiers', then fighters do more damage punching and grappling than they do using swords. Of course, if your DM is a true RBDM (and I am), then he'll run zombies and orcs with those rules until you start begging for mercy, and then your whole attempt to optimize using badly written rules will be table ruled out of existence.

And the players learned to use pummeling (even the fighters) until other options became better. A High Str low Dex fighter type wants to use a weapon~5th level or so.

Orcs and bandits certainly used the technique too! Zombies not so much being mindless and all.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[bganon]

IME the darts thing really came to the fore with the video games, particularly Baldur's Gate. The combination of a lot of combat, low levels, and fairly dumb monster AI meant that if you were cautious it was pretty easy to keep the Wizard out of combat, but they'd have literally nothing to do most of the time except fling ranged weapons and hope for a hit. And often the "interrupt" or proc from striking a hit was much more useful than actual damage dealt, so darts won favor because you can throw more per round than any other weapon.

 

[Uller]

IME the darts thing really came to the fore with the video games, particularly Baldur's Gate. The combination of a lot of combat, low levels, and fairly dumb monster AI meant that if you were cautious it was pretty easy to keep the Wizard out of combat, but they'd have literally nothing to do most of the time except fling ranged weapons and hope for a hit. And often the "interrupt" or proc from striking a hit was much more useful than actual damage dealt, so darts won favor because you can throw more per round than any other weapon.

IIRC the go to ranged weapon for non-martial types was a sling. I recall loading up on sling stones every time I stopped at any shop.

 

[Zardnaar]

The optimal/powergamer thing was darts, casuals went more for staff while smarter casuals went for daggers.

Daggers having a melee option and a lot more common. You might find a +2 or +3 dagger at reasonably low levels as well.

So yeah I had an illusionist wading into melee with such a weapon. No cantrips,+3 dagger level 4 or 5.

Monsters also had a range of hit points so hitting a 2 or 3 HD critter or less with such a weapon had a reasonable chance of killing it.

A multiclass mage could also benefit from gauntlets of ogre strength. A fighter/mage could cast strength as well which often gave you 18/xx strength as well.

Then 1d3 becomes 1d3+6 with 3 attacks.

Casuals didn't see it, optimisers did. If you encountered stoneskin it was also a great choice regardless if you were proficient or not.

 

[Salthorae]

IIRC the go to ranged weapon for non-martial types was a sling.

It certainly was in Baulder's Gate

Casuals didn't see it, optimisers did.

Classic.

I am an optimizer. I saw it, I still defaulted to dagger because I was an optimizer.

I optimized for the most situations possible.

 

[Beleriphon]

I thought wizards were proficinet in darts because they learned them up at the local student pub near wizards school? No? Maybe that was just my university days.