D&D 5E On Representation and Roleplaying

[Mannahnin]

but why does representation help is it some kind of connection or validation thing as either of those things are utterly alien to me, does this make sense I see how it show people off and that they are part of a thing but I fail to see why they would care to begin with is my failure, can that be explained?

people got the sense they could do something because a charter on tv was sort of similar to them that seems very alien to me, I watched tv to get away from myself not be inspired nothing ever inspired conviction in myself.

Let's try this way.

If all the heroes and protagonists you see in fiction, on TV, and in the movies look DIFFERENT from you, in some key way that impacts your social life and the world around you (for example, being white, if you are black), that can create an impression that you cannot be a hero, or the main focus of a story. Or even if your self-image is strong and you see the potential for heroism in yourself, it can create the impression that the world would not accept you as a hero, and that other people think of you as an ancillary character, or even as a servant (as in the black maid characters), not as a person of worth and strength in control of their own destiny.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Tiny grammatical note on a great post. "Transgendered" is not currently the preferred form. Transgender is generally used.

Edited- not sure why I had that? Thanks!

 

[el-remmen]

but why does representation help is it some kind of connection or validation thing as either of those things are utterly alien to me, does this make sense I see how it show people off and that they are part of a thing but I fail to see why they would care to begin with is my failure, can that be explained?

people got the sense they could do something because a charter on tv was sort of similar to them that seems very alien to me, I watched tv to get away from myself not be inspired nothing ever inspired conviction in myself.

I think it is about more than being inspired. Here's the thing, in the United States (which is what I will speak for but this is also true of Europe and even Latin America), seeing the dominant culture or racial group reflected in all aspects of entertainment and news is so naturalized that it is not only people who belong to those groups not see it as anything unusual, but BIPOC people can come to see it that way too (esp. growing up). The simple acknowledgement that we exist and can do all the things folks of the dominant group can do may not seem like much, but growing up with that unspoken and accepted idea that it is white people's stories (both of everyday lives and exceptional ones) are the ones worth telling can have a profound effect not only on self-worth but developing a broader understanding of the world AND actually making space for BIPOC people to fulfill those roles and benefit from those material resources they have historically and systemically been deprived of. Yes, abstractly, but also literally, like Nichelle Nichols role allowed her to have a job where Black folks had few at the time (and even fewer that weren't stereotyped roles), which allowed for other Black folks to be considered for roles down the line. . . (not that progress is guaranteed or always a straight line).

When you are implicitly told through popular culture, "the world is like this" (even while sometimes being explicitly told otherwise) but then see that different possibility for yourself it has the power to deflate and undermine the accepted ideological framework.

Last night I was watching Star Trek: Discovery and it suddenly struck me how wonderful it was to be watching a Black woman captain having a scene with her black man paramour while she deals with the conflict of her personal feelings and her Starfleet duty. In some ways, the scene was no different than we might have seen any of the past white captains have, but that these characters were allowed to have that scene in a major franchise was powerful in itself. As was the b-plot involving designing a body for a disembodied genderqueer character. The themes of identity and personhood that many Star Trek episodes have dealt with in the past are just being explored using contemporary ideas about bodies and gender (as Star Trek should, being a show that frequently looked to current event to inform its parables and allegories) but simply seeing a show that says "This matters enough to explore" is important even without "inspiration." A viewer with a historically marginalized identity can now have the experience of reflection that the dominant group has taken for granted to such a degree, that like as you express above, it remains invisible.

 

[Thomas Shey]

We can then consider what the analog for us, in RPGs, should be. Perhaps it may be that we shouldn't try to directly emulate the mythologies of other cultures, but we can present elements of them?

There's a couple of difficult issues that can come up with this.

1. How close is too close? Who gets to decide?

As an example, some years ago I had a Fantasy Hero setting that was supposed to be deliberately broad stroke. There was a sort-of Central Europe, a sort-of Nordic area, a sort-of Middle Eastern area, a sort-of Africa and a sort-of Central/South American area. None of these were supposed to be particularly literalist in their expression; they were opportunities to have kind of distinct identities and express some concepts I'd seen of some of their real world equivalents in some areas, and just do cool things in others. You could say I was being forward thinking by having one of the African cultures being the most advanced on the planet (they were in what we'd think of as mid-Renaissance when everyone else ranged from Iron Age to Late Medieval) or running to negative stereotypes because the Central/South American expie wasn't a very nice place. I could see someone of Nahua ethnicity who's seen all the Aztecs' negative traits constantly front and center and all their virtues ignored getting kind of soggy about that. So was it a bad idea to even go that far?

2. What translates into other cultures?

I just got done with running a Fantasy Briton Campaign set in a version of the world where magic worked and things like faery had been real, right after the Romans. I did my research as best I could (to the degree you can about that period), but I also took consider liberties for the effect I was trying for. I'm an American, but with a good chunk of Scots ancestry. So was that an "other" culture? If so, for whom isn't it? Native Welsh only? While more closely descended, modern Welsh probably don't have any more real connection with Fourth Century Britons than I do; the only thing they might have (and that's a might) is a bit more DNA shared.

I'm not suggesting that one shouldn't take care in these cases and others, but I do think the appropriate borders in such things are really unclear in a lot of cases.

 

[Umbran]

yes, but how does it make them feel represented what is that like?

My perspective on that is limited, because I'm in a demographic that's pretty well represented, and I'm not going to speak on how other people feel.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm very much am raised in a western culture and often think that way too, but there are things different about how I was raised too. Yes there's more out there in the media about people of my backgrounds somewhat similar to my own like Crazy Rich Asians or Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings.

It maybe a thing that I've rarely ever played a Human of an Asian background in anything, despite being a Human of Asian background. I tend to stick to non-Human characters like Elves or Gnomes, as I feel it might better reflect as sort of being Other but also sort of being on the inside of society.

It's one of the reason why I liked the idea of Planetouched characters (mostly reflected in older editions), because there sort of one thing but not completely yet are still very "human", despite being a 3rd generation descendant of immigrants rather than being mixed-race.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

yes, but how does it make them feel represented what is that like?

Go back and look at all the reviews and reactions to the releases of the Black Panther and Shang-Chi movies and you will see a lot of people excited about finally having someone who looks like them, characters they can look up to, that represent them in the larger world. The explosion of pride in having those positive role-model characters out there for everyone to see.

 

[Retreater]

Go back and look at all the reviews and reactions to the releases of the Black Panther and Shang-Chi movies and you will see a lot of people excited about finally having someone who looks like them, characters they can look up to, that represent them in the larger world. The explosion of pride in having those positive role-model characters out there for everyone to see.

Exactly. But for most of us, when playing characters outside our cultural, racial, and other identities, it's not like Chadwick Boseman playing T'Challa - it's John Wayne playing Genghis Khan or Mickey Rooney in "Breakfast at Tiffany's" (no matter how authentic we may think we are portraying that culture).
This is why I avoid it.

 

[payn]

Exactly. But for most of us, when playing characters outside our cultural, racial, and other identities, it's not like Chadwick Boseman playing T'Challa - it's John Wayne playing Genghis Khan or Mickey Rooney in "Breakfast at Tiffany's" (no matter how authentic we may think we are portraying that culture).
This is why I avoid it.

Oh man, that Mickey Rooney bit...

 

[Mind of tempest]

Go back and look at all the reviews and reactions to the releases of the Black Panther and Shang-Chi movies and you will see a lot of people excited about finally having someone who looks like them, characters they can look up to, that represent them in the larger world. The explosion of pride in having those positive role-model characters out there for everyone to see.

wait people really have role models that seems odd to me for some reason, is that like having a childhood hero or someone to look up to?

I think it is about more than being inspired. Here's the thing, in the United States (which is what I will speak for but this is also true of Europe and even Latin America), seeing the dominant culture or racial group reflected in all aspects of entertainment and news is so naturalized that it is not only people who belong to those groups not see it as anything unusual, but BIPOC people can come to see it that way too (esp. growing up). The simple acknowledgement that we exist and can do all the things folks of the dominant group can do may not seem like much, but growing up with that unspoken and accepted idea that it is white people's stories (both of everyday lives and exceptional ones) are the ones worth telling can have a profound effect not only on self-worth but developing a broader understanding of the world AND actually making space for BIPOC people to fulfill those roles and benefit from those material resources they have historically and systemically been deprived of. Yes, abstractly, but also literally, like Nichelle Nichols role allowed her to have a job where Black folks had few at the time (and even fewer that weren't stereotyped roles), which allowed for other Black folks to be considered for roles down the line. . . (not that progress is guaranteed or always a straight line).

When you are implicitly told through popular culture, "the world is like this" (even while sometimes being explicitly told otherwise) but then see that different possibility for yourself it has the power to deflate and undermine the accepted ideological framework.

Last night I was watching Star Trek: Discovery and it suddenly struck me how wonderful it was to be watching a Black woman captain having a scene with her black man paramour while she deals with the conflict of her personal feelings and her Starfleet duty. In some ways, the scene was no different than we might have seen any of the past white captains have, but that these characters were allowed to have that scene in a major franchise was powerful in itself. As was the b-plot involving designing a body for a disembodied genderqueer character. The themes of identity and personhood that many Star Trek episodes have dealt with in the past are just being explored using contemporary ideas about bodies and gender (as Star Trek should, being a show that frequently looked to current event to inform its parables and allegories) but simply seeing a show that says "This matters enough to explore" is important even without "inspiration." A viewer with a historically marginalized identity can now have the experience of reflection that the dominant group has taken for granted to such a degree, that like as you express above, it remains invisible.

why would you be inspired by something from tv they are fake and competent, I know I am real and a failure thus it seems rather ungraspable to be inspired by fictional or real people at all? also, what does the BI bit mean in BIPOC?

Let's try this way.

If all the heroes and protagonists you see in fiction, on TV, and in the movies look DIFFERENT from you, in some key way that impacts your social life and the world around you (for example, being white, if you are black), that can create an impression that you cannot be a hero, or the main focus of a story. Or even if your self-image is strong and you see the potential for heroism in yourself, it can create the impression that the world would not accept you as a hero, and that other people think of you as an ancillary character, or even as a servant (as in the black maid characters), not as a person of worth and strength in control of their own destiny.

I am nominally the majority and I can not see myself as a hero, is this a problem for people with a strong self-image?