D&D 5E On rulings, rules, and Twitter, or: How Sage Advice Changed

[Lord Mhoram]

And you've played lots of games with mechanics attached to character traits and this never happened?

I can't say lots, but the only times it really happens is when the system doesn't have any mechanics for roleplay/perrsonality*, and it never has when it does.

* by these I mean activating fate aspects, getting a bonus for an action during a scene or something.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

If you've written down "I've read every book in Candlekeep" under personality trait, inspired by your high Intelligence score, what's so immersion-breaking about being rewarded anytime your character actively involves themselves in anything related to education, memory or research? You're going to do it anyway by virtue of your immersion, so what's the actual complaint?

The story has become more real and tangible by way of your character's action in the narrative, and now there's a d20 in play that you can use to thank another player for bringing more of that energy, or that you can use to help ensure that an action you'd like to contribute plays out the way you envisioned it would.

Inspiration helps us tell the stories we're inspired to tell, no?

Not for me. I'm not in the game to tell a story, I'm there to become my character. The story is done by all the players playing their character and the GM being the world and plot enhancer/driver (depending on level of passivity of players).

As for my complaint, I don't mind it as an "extra", but when those things become the currency of the game (like Fate) then I'm thinking tactically on "How can I get my character's traits involved" because it is important to being able to succeed, rather than just playing the character and have that flow naturally from the character rather than driven by necessity of mechanics.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I have never played, or even read a tabletop game that demands that level of granularity. All those things being affected by a one foot difference in height is way too granular for me.

What granularity? A short person has an easier time finding things to hide behind than a tall person, while the tall person can reach things more easily and might even get over certain obstacles a little easier. There is no formula being used to calculate numerical bonuses by the foot, here.

It's really weird to make these sorts of assumptions rather than just asking for clarification.

Good for you, but as far as I'm concerned the age of simulationism is over. I'd go boot up ARMA 3 or RDR2 if I wanted that level of realism.

There is no age of anything, anymore. No trend or movement will ever go away, ever again, unless it is fully and truly rejected by the whole of society. Which isn't likely. Even disco isn't actually dead, anymore. My friends who actually like being in a crowd and dancing with strangers went to a disco show in fall 2019. It was packed. So no, the "age of simulationism", if such a thing ever existed in a meaningful sense, is not over.

But more importantly, this particular thing has lttle at all to do with simulationism, and everything to do with character distinction. Any simulationism is incidental, like the relationship between strength and jumping in 5e, but more loosely defined.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I have never played, or even read a tabletop game that demands that level of granularity. All those things being affected by a one foot difference in height is way too granular for me.

I have to admit, I've played some pretty gritty, simulationist oriented games, but I don't remember too many who honed it down that fine.

Good for you, but as far as I'm concerned the age of simulationism is over. I'd go boot up ARMA 3 or RDR2 if I wanted that level of realism.

People want what they want. The fact something isn't as popular now doesn't mean they should feel differently.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not for me. I'm not in the game to tell a story, I'm there to become my character. The story is done by all the players playing their character and the GM being the world and plot enhancer/driver (depending on level of passivity of players).

As for my complaint, I don't mind it as an "extra", but when those things become the currency of the game (like Fate) then I'm thinking tactically on "How can I get my character's traits involved" because it is important to being able to succeed, rather than just playing the character and have that flow naturally from the character rather than driven by necessity of mechanics.

While I am not as far on this end of the spectrum as you, this is exactly why the game I'm writing has rules for relationships, bonds, rivals, obligations, favors, etc, but social interaction is adjuticated the same way that climbing a wall is. The mechanics are there to help set the scene, help you realise your character and figure out what they're good at, and translate those things into results when needed, but otherwise get out of the way.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I can't say lots, but the only times it really happens is when the system doesn't have any mechanics for roleplay/perrsonality*, and it never has when it does.

* by these I mean activating fate aspects, getting a bonus for an action during a scene or something.

Just because I know you in other contexts--you don't consider Hero System Disadvantages to be a problem here?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, just to be clear, a foot of height difference is very different in physical movement in humans. A person who is 5 foot 6 is at a severe disadvantage kickboxing against a person who is 6 foot 6, assuming equal training and skill. The taller person will also have an easier time clearing distance quickly, clearing low walls without slowing, finding someone in a crowd of people, and a harder time fitting into tight spaces, and hiding.

It's not a small difference.

All that being said, the idea isn't to go foot by foot, the idea is to say that if you choose to make your character especially tall or short, the gameplay will sometimes reflect that, usually in terms of opportunities you will have to leverage that description when attempting to accomplish various tasks. I've a teenage character in a star wars game who is 4 foot 6. She has a much easier time finding places to try to hide than the other human character who is over 6 foot tall. No bonus or penalty to any rolls involved, just the fiction being...affected by the fiction. Which seems pretty obvious, to me.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Such things wouldn't ever be spelled out in the printed rules for any game, if only because to cover all the possible what-ifs would make the rulebooks' word count slightly higher than the collected works of Shakespeare.

Where it comes up is in DM adjudication. Some DMs - myself included - do adjudicate to that degree of granularity when it seems appropriate; others don't, and were I in a game run by one such I'd likely find it rather disappointing.

So it's not a game thing, it's a you thing? That just seems excessive.

What granularity? A short person has an easier time finding things to hide behind than a tall person, while the tall person can reach things more easily and might even get over certain obstacles a little easier. There is no formula being used to calculate numerical bonuses by the foot, here.

It's really weird to make these sorts of assumptions rather than just asking for clarification.

Lanefan made it seem like that whatever game he's using gives out mechanical buffs or debuffs per inch of height/reach, as opposed to general size categories. "For example, a 5'3"-tall person will find it far easier to move normally in a 5'6"-high space than will a 6'4" person; by the same token, that 6'4" person will be able to melee-hit a creature hanging 9 feet above the floor far easier than will the 5'3" person."

But more importantly, this particular thing has lttle at all to do with simulationism, and everything to do with character distinction. Any simulationism is incidental, like the relationship between strength and jumping in 5e, but more loosely defined.

So there's no mechanical impact then, it's all in narration/flavour text? It doesn't actually matter? That seems more reasonable, but with some people you never know...

 

[PsyzhranV2]

So, just to be clear, a foot of height difference is very different in physical movement in humans. A person who is 5 foot 6 is at a severe disadvantage kickboxing against a person who is 6 foot 6, assuming equal training and skill. The taller person will also have an easier time clearing distance quickly, clearing low walls without slowing, finding someone in a crowd of people, and a harder time fitting into tight spaces, and hiding.

It's not a small difference.

All that being said, the idea isn't to go foot by foot, the idea is to say that if you choose to make your character especially tall or short, the gameplay will sometimes reflect that, usually in terms of opportunities you will have to leverage that description when attempting to accomplish various tasks. I've a teenage character in a star wars game who is 4 foot 6. She has a much easier time finding places to try to hide than the other human character who is over 6 foot tall. No bonus or penalty to any rolls involved, just the fiction being...affected by the fiction. Which seems pretty obvious, to me.

You posted this just as I posted my other thing so I didn't see this until after I posted, but:

Nobody I have ever played with gives a single, solitary turd about that level of difference. Nobody outside of this website I have ever discussed tabletop games with cares about that tiny of a difference. None of the industry people I follow on social media care about simulating that level of realism.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So there's no mechanical impact then, it's all in narration/flavour text? It doesn't actually matter? That seems more reasonable, but with some people you never know...

Well, there is impact to it because there have been times where my very small teenage star wars character has been able to hide with little trouble, while her very tall mentor/friend had to go out of his way or use limited resources to be able to even try, and other times where there were obstacles that I had to actually climb, because they were my height, that he could vault with an athletics check because they were only at his chest. Basically, more feet of movement were difficult terrain for me than for him.

Even 5e has a bit of this, where you can reach things in a jump based on your character's height and the height of what you're reaching.

But it's always about the fiction, and representing the fiction in the gameplay. I don't see anything wrong with lanefan using bonuses and penalties, but it's definitely not my way of doing things. I don't like adding more math to the game unless it's going to have a major positive impact on gameplay.