D&D 5E On the healing options in the 5e DMG

[Hussar]

The premise of the opposing side is that they don't want Hit Points to represent some sort of poorly-defined "mojo" or whatever. They want it to represent the physical integrity of your meat body, (or at the very least, they want it to represent a complex equation where the physical integrity of your meat body is a major component - which is perfectly consistent with every definition of Hit Points that has ever been written).

If the game cannot be tweaked such that this is the case, then the game is worthless to them. There's no reason for them to play such a game. Or at least, it's worthless for telling the kind of stories that they want D&D to create. (I'm not saying that I necessarily belong to this camp right now, as I'm seeing some potential with Lingering Wounds.)

The problem is Saelorn, that has never existed in D&D. And thus, the conflict resides with one side wanting to rewrite history and pretend that HP has always mean "physical integrity" while ignoring the fact that this is actually counter to the definition of HP presented in every single edition of D&D. No, it is not consistent with every definition of Hit Points. 1e doesn't define HP this way, Basic/Expert definitely doesn't. On and on. HP have never been defined this way and it's historical revisionism to pretend otherwise.

Which is what is so confusing. If, as you say, the game is worthless unless HP=Meat, then why on earth are they still playing D&D when it has never actually meant this. The only reason that the idea kinda sorta works is because the vast majority of healing has always been done through the magic system - either spells or magic items, so, the healing rates have never really been examined because they're almost never used.

OTOH, my personal issue with healing surges is that they are very often asymmetrical and result in only a couple of characters controlling the pace of the game. When your front line fighter gets down in healing surges, it's time to stop. So, after a particular combat, you might have one PC down a bunch of surges, while the rest of the party is fine, but, you stop anyway because you want to keep that character alive.

It's been a running joke in our Dark Sun game that my warlock needs to get in combat more. In 15 levels, he's hardly ever taken any damage, simply because the group has a lot of fighter defender types. They're getting beaten like a piñata, while I'm sitting back firing off at range. I'm just to pretty to get into combat is my excuse. But, it does get a bit weird when we have to rest because of one or two characters, rather than a group considering one of the reasons for 4e style healing was to get rid of the 15 MAD. But, now instead of stopping because the cleric is out of healing, we're stopping because the fighter is out of surges.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The problem is Saelorn, that has never existed in D&D. And thus, the conflict resides with one side wanting to rewrite history and pretend that HP has always mean "physical integrity" while ignoring the fact that this is actually counter to the definition of HP presented in every single edition of D&D. No, it is not consistent with every definition of Hit Points. 1e doesn't define HP this way, Basic/Expert definitely doesn't. On and on. HP have never been defined this way and it's historical revisionism to pretend otherwise.

I reiterate: It is consistent with every definition of Hit Points if they represent a complex equation where the physical integrity of your meat body is a major component.

The old definitions were intentionally vague, so different people could have different interpretations. I totally get that a lot of people took up a "HP = mojo" view of it. For those who took it to be as I stated, their position also made sense. Once that view had been established, if you take that as your premise, it's easy to see that none of the definitions contradict it, and the game mechanics also work well enough for what you need them... until you get to 4E, where it is outright stated that above half means no damage visible, and healing surges and overnight healing and whatnot seem to strongly favor mojo as the major factor and meat as almost entirely negligible.

 

[Sailor Moon]

In my games I have divorced some of the game terms. The only way to ever reach fully healed in my games is through magical healing or a week of rest. Meanwhile, classes still get their abilities back normally. The maximum hit dice will only ever give you is half your hp and they take a week to gain back.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Someone already said this, but the mechanics up until 4th edition actually hinted that hp could be more meat than the others.

 

[pemerton]

I reiterate: It is consistent with every definition of Hit Points if they represent a complex equation where the physical integrity of your meat body is a major component.

The old definitions were intentionally vague, so different people could have different interpretations.

Someone already said this, but the mechanics up until 4th edition actually hinted that hp could be more meat than the others.

Here is Gary Gygax on p 61 of his DMG:

As has been detailed, hit points are not actually a measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned.​

The "as has been detailed" presumably refers to his PHB, p 34:

A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit ponits at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. . . . [T]he majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.​

And also presumably the DMG, pp 82 and 111:

[T] increase in hit points [with level gain] . . . reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses - and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisoins of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment . . . and the immeasurabe areas which involve the sixth sense and luck. . . .

Each hit scored upon the [high level] character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that woud have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to . . . exceptional skill, luck and sixth sense ability . . . However, having sustained 45 or 50 hit points of damage [of a maximum of 95], our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. . . .

[T]he accumulation of hit points . . . represents the aid supplied by supernatural forces.​

In other words, Gygax denies that most of the hit points gained with level represent meat. Higher level characters don't get meatier! They are more skilled, and luckier (via both "sixth sense" and supernatural protection).

It is true that, discussing healing times, Gygax says (of the 95 hp character who has lost half his/her hit points) that "It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points." But no reason is given for this. It cannot be that it takes weeks for this character to recover from nicks, scrathces, cuts and bruises when a 1st level fighter can recover from the same sorts of injury (perhaps 3 hp lost to falling damage, or as a result of being hit several times with a whip, in this latter case) in a few days. So presumably the bulk of the time required is to regain "metaphysical" hit points. (If not, then gaining levels has the bizarre side effect of making it harder to heal relatively minor injuries, which would be very counterintuitive.)

But that is a purely arbitrary stipulation. Stipulating, instead, that powerful heroes can regain their metaphysical mojo in hours rather than weeks is equally arbitrary. But these are differences of narrative pacing, not of verisimilitude.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Here is Gary Gygax on p 61 of his DMG:

As has been detailed, hit points are not actually a measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned.​

The "as has been detailed" presumably refers to his PHB, p 34:

A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit ponits at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. . . . [T]he majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.​

And also presumably the DMG, pp 82 and 111:

[T] increase in hit points [with level gain] . . . reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses - and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisoins of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment . . . and the immeasurabe areas which involve the sixth sense and luck. . . .

Each hit scored upon the [high level] character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that woud have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to . . . exceptional skill, luck and sixth sense ability . . . However, having sustained 45 or 50 hit points of damage [of a maximum of 95], our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. . . .

[T]he accumulation of hit points . . . represents the aid supplied by supernatural forces.​

In other words, Gygax denies that most of the hit points gained with level represent meat. Higher level characters don't get meatier! They are more skilled, and luckier (via both "sixth sense" and supernatural protection).

It is true that, discussing healing times, Gygax says (of the 95 hp character who has lost half his/her hit points) that "It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points." But no reason is given for this. It cannot be that it takes weeks for this character to recover from nicks, scrathces, cuts and bruises when a 1st level fighter can recover from the same sorts of injury (perhaps 3 hp lost to falling damage, or as a result of being hit several times with a whip, in this latter case) in a few days. So presumably the bulk of the time required is to regain "metaphysical" hit points. (If not, then gaining levels has the bizarre side effect of making it harder to heal relatively minor injuries, which would be very counterintuitive.)

But that is a purely arbitrary stipulation. Stipulating, instead, that powerful heroes can regain their metaphysical mojo in hours rather than weeks is equally arbitrary. But these are differences of narrative pacing, not of verisimilitude.

It's amazing how you cherry pick your quotes and then actually ignore other parts.

There are three words that deatroy your argument completely.

"A certain amount."

Now, you show me where the percentages are written as to the breakdown of meat etc.." Looks to me like those words were used in a way to allow different DM's to interpret the ratio how they see fit. Show us any mechanics from that era that actually prove any different. You won't find any sort of healing surge mechanics, quick overnight healing through nonmagical means, nor will you find any kind of melee damage on a miss.

You're spitting in the wind here.

 

[GameOgre]

Guys, can't we agree to disagree and just accept that some use hit points as mostly a measure of the physical bodies capacity to withstand damage and some use it as being mostly skill, luck and other ways to avoid physical damage?

You will never convince "the other side" that your way is right just like they will never convince you that you are mistaken.

There is room enough in 5E I think(or any version of D&D) for both.

So instead of just arguing the points of both sides we could just debate the merits of various options to better reflect our own personal view of the game we all play?


Personally, If I viewed hit points as "meat" I think I would go with the option mentioned earlier where in order to fully naturally heal, it would take a month of game time. So one long rest per month. Granted this still is a huge increase from real life but hey it's a game after all.

Now doing so would also mean that spellcasters received spells back at a incredibly slower rate(unless you unhinged spell recovery from rest) but I can see it working in a very low magic type of setting.

 

[MechaPilot]

It's amazing how you cherry pick your quotes and then actually ignore other parts.

There are three words that deatroy your argument completely.

"A certain amount."

"A certain amount" is an undefined quantity that could easily be interpreted to be one HP if one were so inclined. Unless you can cite where "a certain amount" is defined, then those three words utterly fail to accomplish what you think they do.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

"A certain amount" is an undefined quantity that could easily be interpreted to be one HP if one were so inclined. Unless you can cite where "a certain amount" is defined, then those three words utterly fail to accomplish what you think they do.

If you're just going from those words, then X is as likely to be 1% as it is to be 99%. No number is more correct than any other.

In context, X is unlikely to be more than 90%, given that the remainder is "significant".

Which is to say that, while it certainly can be read in such a way that HP = mostly mojo, it is not inconsistent with a view that HP = mostly meat.

 

[MechaPilot]

Guys, can't we agree to disagree and just accept that some use hit points as mostly a measure of the physical bodies capacity to withstand damage and some use it as being mostly skill, luck and other ways to avoid physical damage?

You will never convince "the other side" that your way is right just like they will never convince you that you are mistaken.

There is room enough in 5E I think(or any version of D&D) for both.

So instead of just arguing the points of both sides we could just debate the merits of various options to better reflect our own personal view of the game we all play?

I entirely agree with you about the futility of attempting to convince others to adopt a different view of Hit Points, and I think you have a good idea for a more productive angle to this thread.

For me, I like variety. When I DM, I like being able to describe a blow that does damage as either a full-on hit (though I usually only do that with bludgeoning weapons), as a nick/partial hit, or as being avoided/deflected/parried at the last moment. I also like being able to describe a miss as a hit that does no damage, especially as the opening blow in a fistfight (nothing says you could be screwed like punching someone and noticing that they barely feel it).

I also like being able to describe the HP loss for things that I consider obviously fatal, like falling in lava, as avoiding those things. Instead of falling into lava and surviving it because it was "just a quick dip" in the lava, the character uses up a great deal of her good fortune (and possibly strains a muscle or two) in avoiding the deadly lava.

For me, HPs are a very poor way to model specific injury because there is no impact other than HP loss: an arrow in the calf is just one die of damage, but you can still walk, run, swim, jump, and climb without any problems. Because of that view, I see HPs as largely being a meter to determine if a character can keep fighting, and that's probably part of why I have no problem with them refreshing each day. If I want to impose a specific and lasting injury on a PC, I will; PCs in my games tend to sprain ankles or break bones when they fall too far.