[On topic - NO FLAMES!] God & Satan

[Dogface]

What is today the Catholic Bible was hammered out (and I mean that almost literally) during the Nicean Council, than finalized by St. Jerome, with various revisions happening over the years. It consists of the Protestant Old and New Testaments, and a group of 14 or so books called the Apocrypha. Classically these are the books of Judith, Tobit, Maccabees 1 and 2, the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, and various additions to Esther, and Daniel (all of which were declared canonical by the Roman Catholic Church during the reformation), as well as the First book of Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the rarely seen anti-apcolypse Esdras 2. Eastern Orthodox churches had as well the 3rd and 4th books of Maccabees, and the 151st Psalm.

And then there are all those books that only appear in the Ethiopian Bible, but I digress here and you digress later.

Now the reasons why these books were left out of the Protestant Bible (or rather, the several Protestant Bibles...) is a rather tangled story. You see, none of these books are found in the Jewish Torah, and so many scholars (St. Jerome among the first of them) considered them of dubious theological value. Many strict Protestants will tell you that the apocryphal books are full of all sorts of evil, perverted things. And they are, to be blunt, talking out their wazoos. The Apocryphal books are found in various copies of the Greek Septuagint, a work written by Greek Jews for easy reading. They aren't full of vile secret Satanic messages--the Greek version of Esther is actually MORE pius than the Hebraic version, which mentions God a record number of times in the Bible--zero.

Furthermore, the Masoretic text--the Hebrew version of Scripture that is used as the basis of translating the modern Christian Old Testament--was actually compiled centuries after the beginning of Christianity. Our oldest manuscripts of the Septuagint are actually older than our oldest manuscripts of the Masoretic text. What is interesting is how one word can make a great big difference theologicall. In the 50th Psalm (51st in the Masoretic), there is a line that says "In[to] sins I was born" in the Septuagint. In the Masoretic, it says "In sin I was conceived". The Septuagint version can be read to mean "I was born into a world full of sin."--which is how Orthodox theology often interprets it. The Masoretic was read by St. Augustine of Hippo to mean that the very act of sexual conception was a sin--which is how Western theology often interprets it.

What is the gaming point of this? It is possible for two very closely-related religions that consult (nearly) the same sources to come up with rather different outlooks. This could also be the case in a Crusaders campaign.

 

[Rhialto]

Umm, it seemed that this thread was beginning to die, which seemed like a real shame, so I've decided to try and ressurrect it. Consider this a bump...

Oh, and if this a Crusades era campaign, will you deal with the Templar/Hospitaler rivalry? And how?

 

[Bragg Battleaxe]

I would change alignment around a bit. I would have God's alignment be " ------ Good" and have Satan's alignment be " ----- Evil". Sort of true Good and True Evil. The human churches that represent the two foes would supply the Law and Chaos and would represent different factions or philosophies. I think this gives each of these figures more of an archetypal feel and saves you the trouble of having to make a random call on a more specific alignment.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Oh, and if this a Crusades era campaign, will you deal with the Templar/Hospitaler rivalry? And how?

Honestly, until you wrote this I didn't know there was one. What was the nature of their rivalry? How did the Teutonic Knights figure into it?

 

[William Ronald]

Book Recommendations

Andrew D. Gable:

There are some books which I would like to recommend you, as it has both the Christian religion, Norse mythology, and Celtic Mythology.

The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson, also there is a book that I believe was called The Merman's Child.

Also, Three Hearts and Three Lions has a classic take on a paladin character -- and allusions to the Chanson de Roland.


It has been stated that different faiths can interprept texts differently. Another key issue is translation. Depending on who is doing a translation, and the words that they are using, meanings can change. (Indeed, people can and do argue over translations.)

Good luck with your campaign.

 

[Rhialto]

About the Templar/Hospitaler Rivalry--

The (primarily French) Templars were viewed as the greatest, most glorious example of holy knighthood. They were the wealthiest and most prestigious of the orders.

The Hospitalers (mostly Italian and English) were a close second, nearly as wealthy and important their rivals. As the years went on, they won the rule of Malta--but never quite eclipsed the Templars.

The source of their rivalry had many causes--nationality, one-upmanship, attempts to gain wealth, even the occasional theological difference. It mostly resulted in rivalry and grandstanding, with little real harm coming about.

Mostly.

As for the Teutonic Knights--they were a third order, founded in imitation of the Templars, for Germans. They maintained good relations with both of the other two orders, and went on to conquer Poland (rather bloodily, at that...). Essentially neutral parties, who came on the scene late enough to not be seen as a threat...

 

[Tiefling]

I'm still curious how you're going to handle Jewish and Islamic clerics. I'm not sure if all three religions can be right at the same time.

 

[Celebrim]

Tiefling: The theological differences between the three religions are often hardly greater than the differences between the various sects of each religion. They have alot in common, such as obviously the assumption that the world was created by a benevolent, all powerful, infallible, caring creator. Actually, they have so much in common that it is possible to be both a practicing Jew and a practicing Christian (though I suppose some orthodox Jews would get offended by that), and indeed some Jews are.

As an example, one simplifying assumption is to assume that where they differ, they are all wrong to one extent or the other. This permits them to be all right as well. However, even if one of them does have the truth (or more of the truth) (and its pretty obvious where I stand on this), that perforce means that the others are also right in the areas that the do not disagree. As a Christian who has heard a moslem give his testimony, I found there were alot of places where I could (had I felt it appropriate to the situation) given a loud Amen. Of course, we both think the other is a heretic - he because I do not except Mohammad was a divinely inspired prophet, and I because he refuses to accept that a Holy God could have put on a mortal body - but everybody has thier problems.

 

[s/LaSH]

Let's not forget that the Knights Templar were eventually accused of demon-worship and wiped out... of course, most people think that this was just politics. It makes an interesting piece of background for the holiest, mightiest order in the land.

About the jew/muslim/christian 'correctness' issue: I got around that problem by making the source of spells a generic upper-plane evocation. Tap into Heaven directly and use its power. Thence it doesn't matter precisely what your beliefs are, so long as you're pure enough to tolerate the positive energy. No evil soul could endure the exposure long enough to cast a spell.

As a Christian who has heard a moslem give his testimony, I found there were alot of places where I could (had I felt it appropriate to the situation) given a loud Amen. Of course, we both think the other is a heretic - he because I do not except Mohammad was a divinely inspired prophet, and I because he refuses to accept that a Holy God could have put on a mortal body - but everybody has thier problems.

Actually, having just asked a Catholic priest, Mohammad is considered 'a prophet of God'. Exact quote. I don't know whether they accepted him during the Crusades era, though.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Let's not forget that the Knights Templar were eventually accused of demon-worship and wiped out... of course, most people think that this was just politics. It makes an interesting piece of background for the holiest, mightiest order in the land.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it WAS mostly politics (and economics, but in this case, they were the same thing).