[On topic - NO FLAMES!] God & Satan

[Rhialto]

Truth be told, nobody knows for certain what went on during the Templars trials. It probably was all a lot hooey--and Philip IV of France was most definitely motivated by economic gain--but there are several curious facts about the trial...

Anyway, none of this really matters, as it is the DM's world, and he can do whatever he likes with the Templars...

 

[Blacksad]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it WAS mostly politics (and economics, but in this case, they were the same thing).

It was sanctioned by the church due to, in part, some idea of the Templar that they got during crusade, i.e. they were a bit more tolerant of oriental ideas. Though it was indeed mostly politics.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Well, this kinda brings it up: has anyone else heard the rumor that supposedly the Crystal Skull of Lubaantun (sp) was the mysterious "Head of Baphomet" the Templars had? At any rate, it seems that it was NOT found in Mayan ruins, as Mitchell-Hedges said...

Anyway, I've hashed out how I'm going to deal with pagan clerics, and it's in a way that's mythologically accurate. I'm working on the assumption (DnD-wise) that deities rely on belief to continue existence. As more and more peoples were converted, whether to Islam or to Christianity or to Judaism, less and less believed in the old gods, and so they dwindled, from godhood to spiritness, with small enclaves of believers left. Thus, the majority of pagan clerics are actually shamans (as per Green Ronin), and only "the Big 3" are clerics. So therefore, all the gods are valid...but not all are anymore.

Celtic mythology features this idea a lot, with the Tuatha de Danaan "dwindling" to the Sidhe faery-lords, and still later to mere tricksters.

Dunno about Hinduism, though... that's one of the strongholds, I guess.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

By the way, O Great Knowledgable Ones of All Things Asian...

I've always been fuzzy on Japanese religion. They talk about the Kami spirits... are they identical with the Japanese pantheon (Amaterasu, Raiden, Hachiman)? Or an older religion? What I'm getting at is at this time would Japan have shamans as well or out and out clerics?

 

[William Ronald]

Andrew:

The Celtic texts for mythology were heavily edited by monks, who threw in all sorts of things (such as an ancestor of the Gaels being cured of snakebite by Aaron) and the diminishing bit seems to be mostly a later addition to folklore. Heck, the Milesian Invasion of Ireland ONLY appears in texts of the Ulster kings, and other contemporary and older sources do not mention the "myth." (Which seems to be established to bolster the Ulster kings.) However, Poul Anderson used the same thing in the Broken Sword, with powers either diminishing or going to the Other World. So, the diminishing bit is up to you. (If you have access to a good university library, see if they have volumes of the Mythology of All Races, an old (1909) but very useful work.)

As for the kami, they can be thought of as part of the divine order with Amaterasu Omikami, Raiden, and some others counting as deities, and many others (such as the spirit of a sacred place) counting as spirits.

The Japanese would likely have clerics. However, the Ainu might be perceived as having shamans. The Ainu, the native people of Hokkaido and other northern Japanese isles, are a distinct culture from the majority of Japan.

Andrew, you might want to e-mail Black Omega or try to get his attention on this matter.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

bump

 

[Tiefling]

bump

Report to Crothian for decommisioning immediately, citizen.

 

[Nathanael]

Here are some interesting little factoids, drawn from the study of Hebrew and Christian theology, for you to consider...

The term Satan is not a name, per se. The actual Hebrew term is Ha-Satan, or 'The Adversary.' This, and other theological points too long to go into, implies that being Satan is an office set up in opposition of God's creation. This would explain why, in the Old Testament, we see the Satan chatting with God, tempting Jesus, plaguing Job with God's permission, etc. It's his job.

Furthermore, the concept of Hell as a place that exists to punish. sinners as soon as they die is inaccurate. Hell is used to refer to a place, the lake of fire, that is set aside for the punishment of those not with God. More accurately, it is a time when, after the second defeat of the Satan, the first being after the tribulation in Revelations in which he is chained for a thousand years and the second being after he is loosed after that thousand year imprisonment to mislead the nations one final time, the living and dead are finally judged and the eternal punishment given.

So there is no Hell for the devil to reign in at this time. He walks the earth doing his job: creating conflict and opposition to the Lord our God. A celestial QA guy, if you will. According to Revelations, which is essentially a history of the universe from the past into the future, there is a point where Satan rebels against the Lord in a much more substantial way: when the tail of the dragon sweeps 1/3 of the stars from the sky, or, in a more literal sense, when he causes the fall of 1/3 of the heavenly host. When this time is, or if it has happened already, is impossible to know for mortal man, according to the Book itself.

So, in the end, I would view Satan as an angel who tempts and twists humanity as his job, and who will eventually become so twisted him/herself (angels, as spirits, have no gender) from the constant state of opposing God's creation that he will someday go insane and try to oppose God himself, leading to his downfall. Those who failed to resist him will then join him as he is thrown into the lake of fire at the end of history.

As an interesting side note: did you know that Lucifer is not The Satan? He is the angel of Pride, and though this will lead to his joining the Satan in the fall, he is just another fallen angel. The actual name of Satan, in accordance with Hebrew text, is Sammael. The ironic part of this is that no one will name their child Lucifer, but how many Sammuels do you know? Pretty cunning trick on the part of The Adversary, don't you think? ;-)

 

[barsoomcore]

Here's a question for all you Biblical scholars:

What are the accepted sources of Revelations (I've heard of at least two, I assume there's others)? When was Revelations incorporated into the "official" text of the New Testament?

Because I have to admit that Revelations seems... odd...

 

[Celebrim]

"As an interesting side note: did you know that Lucifer is not The Satan? He is the angel of Pride, and though this will lead to his joining the Satan in the fall, he is just another fallen angel."

And some would argue that Lucifer=a (fallen) angel is another misreading of the text, and furthermore, that God would never refer to Satan by the flattering title Lucifer; and indead, Jesus never does. In fact, the word Lucifer is applied in the Bible only to the King of Tyre; and it is only because some readers of the passage in question have assumed (rightly or wrongly) that part of that passage refers metaphorically to some pre-creation heavenly event that we even associate Lucifer with a fallen angel.