[On topic - NO FLAMES!] God & Satan

[Reynard]

Concentrating on the game part---


I guess the question is really how much you want this issue to be central to the game. After all, that is what mechanics are for, representing the level of importance of an idea in play. That's why, in D&D, you have a huge list of spells, magic items, and monsters: the fantasy aspect is the most important part. okay, so I am sliding off topic...

Anyway, if the true role of God and Satan are important to your game, you are going to have to spend some serious time determining exactly what effects that has from a mechanical perspective. there are lots of good ideas here and I won't be so bold as to tell you which ones you should use. however, if you merely like the Crusades as a backdrop for the campaign -- a campaign that will still have a D&D feel to it -- then it is not so important. Give Christian Clerics the "good" daminas and give Satanic cultists the "evil domains" and be done with it. Domain powers represent the special powers granted by said deities. If you don't have to explain it, don't. Will your players really care whether Satan is a god or a solar with class levels?

There is, of course, a middle ground, where the crusades are a back drop for a campaign revolving around theology. Are the characters supposed to be elarning something no one knows (God and Satan are the same entity; angels and demons are different entities entirely and not the product of rebellion; etc...)? Are they supposed to be stamping out the heretics? Are they Raiding for the Lost Ark (best D&D campaign ever, btw)? In thse situations, I would actually remove divine classes entirely and have sorcerers be the forces of darkness and paladins be the forces of good (maybe even rangers, since I believe there were saints of the wilderness). That way, the mighty divine stuff can be plot points instead of crunchy bits 9as would seem appropriate for the above mentioned campaigns).

 

[Therigwin]

Good Thread so far...

Wow, this is pretty good so far... Only a little bit of the flames starting up. Lets throw some water on it and keep the good ideas going.

Ok, I realize that I may not be as smart as some of the previous posters, but this is something I have thought about as well.

Really you only have 1 diety, that is God. Then you have all of his creation. Now if you made "power" available to the creatures of your creation they would be responsible for how they use it. They could tap this power through science (wizards), force of personality (bards and sorcerors), prayers (clerics & paladins), being in tune with creation (druids), or mental ability (psions).

I treat it as if they had a unique talent. They then could choose to use it for good or evil.

Now what is evil? Evil is being so selfish you have no thought to others. Good then is being totally unselfish and caring for all.

Now, Satan is evil, because he is selfish. I would assign him the domains of Evil, Death, Destruction.

What is Death? Death is separation from God. Ok...

Now God is good and I really wouldn't limit his domains that much.
I would give him - Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Magic, Plant, Protection, Repose, Strength, Sun, War, Water

(Repose because it shows power over death.)

As far as quantifying using Divine Rank, I agree with what someone posted earilier. I think that Outsiders that are really powerful have a divine rank (either Solars, Demons, or Devils), and thus in gaming terms, a deity means a creature with Divine Rank, and that just gives them a little more umph. (And the posibility of worship, but hey, look at our society, we worship humans all the time <-- Sports, Music, Hollywood anyone? -->)

So I would make Satan like a Divine Rank of 15 to 17. I would make some of the Angels a Divine Rank of 15 to 20. And I would not worry about God's Divine Rank, because it can't be quantified in gaming terms or real life terms. Ultimate Power and Ultimate Love is uncomprehendable.

Well, There is some more ramblings by me.

To look at how I handle it all (Being a Christian with conservative theology, but moderate views) you can visit my website and click on the Confessions of a Christian Dungeon Master.
(In fact, I have gained more players through that article from amonst my friends who were debating the whole FRP being evil thing.)

Ok, I be quiet now.

 

[Celebrim]

Therigwin: The following passage has always meant alot to me:

"And the voice of Illuvatar spoke to him; and Aule heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Illuvatar said unto him, "Why hast thou done this? Why did you attempt a thing which thou knowst is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy own hand and mind can live only in that being...
Then Aule answered..."Yet the making of these things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the child of his father. But what shall I do now, that thou be not angery with me forever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made. Do with them what thou wilt."

- The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkein

Aule's answer has always seemed to me to be the prayer of the Dungeon Master, or any other would be builder of worlds.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

A couple of things. The person you refer to is me. I did not criticize Tyler's summary of Gnostic tenets, although, if you want me to grade it as a history report, I can. I am well aware that he did not make them up. Any angst in this post is due to the fact that you are immediately assuming that what offended me was Gnosticism and that I was some ignorant uneducated rube. That gets really tiring you know. Although this appears to have escaped you, I criticized not Tyler's content but an apparant lack of respect for the other posters (whether intended or not). My fear is that eventually we are going to get one of two types of posters involved in this thread: either immature religious types looking to stamp out heresy with hellfire and brimstone, or angsty aetheists looking to stamp out the evil of Christians. Either type is more interested in provoking the other side than anything contructive. Both have thier own agenda, and both to be frank annoy me.

To be honest, the disrespect was not intended, it was just construed that way. I am a presenter of ideas and possibilities.

Ok, right. Provoke the Mormons, the Latter Day Saints, and the Quakers by comparing them to a bunch of heretics. I'm sure that they feel the comparison is valid. Actually, you are probably safe, because in my experience, those three groups typically use thier time more constructively and probably aren't killing time on a BBS.

Mormon=Latter Day Saints. And I'm sure I needn't remind you that there is at least one Mormon in the fantasy gaming industry (Tracy Hickman)... and he does post on internet boards and lists from time to time.

As for comparing them to "heretics", I'm sure that Mormons and Quakers are also considered heretics by many other religious sects... yet again, this is relative.

Yep. I knew that. I imagine most of us did. We don't seem that stupid. But, the reason I'm suspicious of this sort of thing is 9 times in 10 the person that is bringing it up is just hoping to shock someone.

I don't see what's so shocking about it... there's nothing shocking at all about it to me.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at. The Kult RPG is supposed to be a good reference for a medieval catholic religion? Look, if you want to do some post modernistic 'I'm so burned by societies evils' RPG, that's fine. I can't stop you. Do your thing. I assume you are perfectly capable. I frankly would like to transcend societies evils instead of moping about them, but that's just me.

There are many possible interpretations of medieval Catholocism... medieval Catholic theology was just a map, not the territory, and we can't even say how good a map it was (I don't think it was a particularly useful one).

As for transcending societies "evil", there are many different approaches, and different interpretations of what society's "evil" is. I could offer my views and my approach if you like- it would probably be a bit different.

Maybe, if the thread had been about making up new religions, and if Tyler's intentions in making up a new Christian heresy was not to upset the Christians on the board and provoke a flame war, or if Tyler himself wasn't the sort that enjoyed trying to shock or enrage members of other religions by discussing or inventing alternative narratives which were distasteful to the members of that religion, then sure. But I had this slight suspicion you see that Tyler LIKED creating contriversy, and he himself kinda expected it to be the normal outcome of his conversation and I was trying to head it off before it became viscious on someones part.

Yes, I do enjoy creating controversy. But that truly wasn't my intent, and if I came off that way, then I'm sorry. I just wanted to propose a few ideas that I had been playing around with for my own campaign and suggest a few books that I thought someone creating an "alternate history" and looking for ideas for a D&D campaign would find interesting (the three I listed I've found to be utter gold mines).

No, not by my book. If you invent a fictitious narrative involving Christianity, Judism, Hiduism, or anything else that is specifically offensive to the members of that group, then no its probably not entirely the fault of the people on the recieving end of your fiction. Wasn't there something you said about treating religions with respect?

Although the religions in question are never mentioned by name, there are many "game religions" that do a pretty good job of butchering the theology of many real-world religions. How true is "Deities and Demigods" to Asatru or Hermeticism? What about "Swashbuckling Adventures" when it comes to portraying religions based off of Catholcism, Lutheran Protestantism, or Russian Orthodoxy? Gonna consult "Oriental Adventures" or the Rokugan supplements for data on Taoism or Zen (I certainly hope not)?

Game designers do it all the time.

The problem is that for some people, those simply aren't valid ideas. The resemble more people telling other people that eating ice cream doesn't make you fat, and that carbon monoxide isn't actually poisonous. They resemble dangerous lies. Moreover, since they are (by thier perception) slander about a person they actually know, they tend to get touchy about it. So, I would suggest, that if you don't know the Big Guy, that you don't dish on him so freely, because at the very least - you are going to get annoyed by people continually praying for your soul.

Eating ice cream has never made me fat, and with my metabolism and lifestyle, never will. Carbon Monoxide in the tiny doses that anyone in a major city breathes regularly isn't going to kill anyone.

Don't think that I don't take religion seriously- you would be very mistaken. But I don't think there is anything particularly sacred about mythical stories, dogmatic laws, extensive theological systems- to me it's all window dressing and navel gazing. To me, religion is about freedom, understanding, and living life to the fullest... not about who's story you believe or who your favorite imaginary friend is. But that's just me.

 

[Tiefling]

I would circumvent the whole damn problem by saying that all clerics are actually "ethos" clerics. Their power doesn't come from God or Satan, but by believing very, very strongly in furthering God's or Satan's cause.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I like the idea that Satan is not God's enemy, but humanity's. And I like the suggestion that even if angels and demons are explicitly described, I think God should still be very mysterious and remote.

Speaking of demons, it has always puzzled me why demons, if they are fallen angels, are so dissimilar to angels. Green Ronin partially addressed that by having a "fallen" template,- has anyone done a "risen" template to illustrate what an unfallen Hezrou or Vrock is like?

Anyway, one might try to use opposing templates to create suitable angels and demons.

An angel might be a cloud giant with the half-celestial template on it. Which would tie nicely in with giants being the offspring of angels and mortals. A demon might be a half-fiendish cloud giant.

Or perhaps elementals. On a thread in the Conversions forum there was a suggestion that the Balrog in LotR might be modelled as a fire elemental with the shadow template. I personally think a magma para-elemental (MotP) with the half-fiend template would work great.

The axiomatic and anarchic templates could be used in place of the half-celestial and half-fiendish templates, respectively. You might have to add wings in a separate step, though.

Anyway, enough about angels and demons.

I think that the events and "facts" in a setting should be compatible with two (or more) incompatible world-views. If you were to adopt some vision of medieval catholicism as the mythos of the setting, you might want to ensure that there is a hint or two that maybe the gnostics were right. Or that at least some angels are muslim, jewish or agnostic instead of catholic. Make it doubtful about exactly where a spell-caster's power comes from- from God, from Satan, from the wizard himself...?

I am pleasantly surprised that the thread has been flame-free for so long. I find that one of the tricks of keeping things cool is to avoid quoting other people. I think maybe the bold-face font makes people's blood pressure rise, kind of like using all caps. Direct refutation or contradiction of someone else is probably a bad idea (not that anyone seems to be doing so)- an indirect approach is best.

Regards,

 

[Luthyr]

3e Game Book References

Just a few game book references that might be of use to you:

Legions of Hell - Green Ronin Publishing's book on devils. Fairly well done, and includes the "Fallen" template for celestials.

Deities & Demigods - the best resource for making d20 versions of God, Saints, Devils and Satan.

Manual of the Planes - if you really want to go as far as defining the nature of Heaven & Hell (and Purgatory if you want to use that).

Cheers!

 

[William Ronald]

Andrew D. Gable -- an interesting topic.

So far, this thread has surprised me by having several good ideas and not degenerating into a flame war.

A campaign using real world religions can have members of the same faith who have different interpreptations of holy texts and traditions. Similarly, practices can differ by region. This can add a little flavor to different areas of the campaign setting, as well as set in some rivalries.

Also, different faiths will have different interpreptations of various beings. For example, the term satan was originally used for a class of beings or beings who served as accusers in the divine court. In the Jewish tradition, Satan was at times identifed with what is called 'yetser hara" -- the inclination towards evil. However, even this was ultimately rejected by Judaism, as all things being viewed as ultimately under God's control.

Mind you, there was a period under Persian influence where some sought to equate Satan with Ahriman, the Persian god of evil, but this idea was ultimately rejected. While a few references to Satan can be found in Orthodox and Jewish prayer books, they are now generally considered a figure of speech.

Thus in a campaign with Christian, Moslem, and Jewish clerics, each could have differing views of God and Satan. I think differing interpreptations of a faith in a campaign can add to its richness. In any tradition, there are different beliefs. Similar, different faiths often will disagree on several key matters.

You may wish to check some previously published works.
There was some discussion of real world religions in the 2nd Edition Historical Reference series, especially A Mighty Fortress. Additionally, there was a suggestion that PCs at least exhibit religious tolerance of each other -- a very rare thing for the 1500s and 1600s.

As for arcane magic, there were Jewish, Moslem, and even Christian Kabbalists. (I think on the Conversions pages, there is a version of a Kabbalist.) Of course, how one would use magic in a setting using real world religions is a decision for the DM.


The key thing for setting up such a campaign is to make sure that you talk to the players to make sure no one is offended. The key thing is to treat the beliefs of others with respect in the same way that you wish your beliefs to be treated.

 

[shawnsse]

The domains of Christ is presented in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12-14. They are called the spiritual gifts.

Word of Wisdom
Word of Knowledge
Faith
Healing
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of Spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues
(Someone can work out, i don't have PHB with me)

The standards of Christians is in Galatians 5:22.
The fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patient, goodness, kindness, faihtfulness, gentleness and self control.

The "priests" has different functions
(forget the book and chapter)
The apostles,
The prophet
The evangelist
The pastor
The teacher

In the hierachey, there is overser or elders and deacons.

Hope it helps to provide some ideas.
BTW this terms are for the new testament.

The old testament has a different system than this.

 

[Glyfair]

Re: 3e Game Book References

Just a few game book references that might be of use to you:

Legions of Hell - Green Ronin Publishing's book on devils. Fairly well done, and includes the "Fallen" template for celestials.

Deities & Demigods - the best resource for making d20 versions of God, Saints, Devils and Satan.

Manual of the Planes - if you really want to go as far as defining the nature of Heaven & Hell (and Purgatory if you want to use that).

Cheers!

Actually, the Encyclopedia of Devils & Demons from Fast Forward would be very good for this. Just make sure you ignore the stats and build up from there.

Glyfair of Glamis