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5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I would not mind tossing Metamagic entirely out of the Sorcerer, and it's a small price to pay for all the people who actually want their Sorcerers to fulfill the class fantasy and not just handed the Wizard's discarded handouts. I don't recall it being anything that Sorcerer fans actually asked for or was wanting for the class. Don't give it to all casters though. Just toss it out entirely. No more Sorlocks.
Honestly though. Meta magic is more to theme on a sorcerer than a wizard.
 

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You still have to drag a spellbook around?
In the Potter/Yennifer model, yes, the process of getting an internal power that can do anything to do exactly what you want it to is enormously complicated, and you'd be well advised to work from your notes. This isn't the only way to represent internal magic, of course, nor is it adequate for every character concept in every universe. It doesn't work well for Elsa, for instance. But it is how magic works in a lot of fantasy, and there's a ring of plausibility to it: after all, great artists and musicians in the real world, whatever their natural creative gifts, tend to also be intelligent and usually keep notebooks. So it's hardly an indefensible omission for it to have worked this way pre-3E.

I'm not asking you to give up on the sorcerer; I'm asking you to give the wizard class more credit. You're fond of expounding on all the different ways there are to be a sorcerer. Don't then turn around and insist that there's only one way to be a wizard.
 

Honestly though. Meta magic is more to theme on a sorcerer than a wizard.
I completely disagree with this. Computer coding can be done by loners in the basement.
Advances like discovering Crispr happen, due to scientists and universities.

Given that team sorcerer is all about Wizard=Scientist, Metamagic to me is more like Crispr, than Woz working in his garage coding early Personal Computers.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I completely disagree with this. Computer coding can be done by loners in the basement.
Advances like discovering Crispr happen, due to scientists and universities.

Given that team sorcerer is all about Wizard=Scientist, Metamagic to me is more like Crispr, than Woz working in his garage coding early Personal Computers.
no idea what programming has to do with it.

sorcerers are all about bending magic to their will. Nothing epitomizes that more than meta magic.

min second thought your programming analogy reveals something amazing about your position... it really is about wizards needing to have nicer, more powerful things than sorcerers because theyare the non loner universitybig wigs.... says alot
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
.
.
I completely disagree with this. Computer coding can be done by loners in the basement.
Advances like discovering Crispr happen, due to scientists and universities.

Given that team sorcerer is all about Wizard=Scientist, Metamagic to me is more like Crispr, than Woz working in his garage coding early Personal Computers.
no scientist=arcanist. Artificer= engineer. Wizard=programmer Plumber/mechanic/electrician=magewright
Wizard was raided & coped from so thoroughly of all it's bonus feat options/nearly every spell to build sorcerer & warlock & the remaining crafting ones were just cut from the game resulting in a wizard that can not explore those areas FR lacks.
1581477513718.png
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
no idea what programming has to do with it.

sorcerers are all about bending magic to their will. Nothing epitomizes that more than meta magic.

min second thought your programming analogy reveals something amazing about your position... it really is about wizards needing to have nicer, more powerful things than sorcerers because theyare the non loner universitybig wigs.... says alot
I could see meta magic working for either sorcerer or wizard. For the sorcerer as we currently have it, it is a natural ability to shape magic. For the wizard, it is the study of the fundamental principles of magic that allows them to alter spells.

Personally, I think that meta magic should have been available for any class that can cast spells, even an eldritch knight might learn to cast their spells in different ways than standard.
 

Yes, it says I believe a person devoted to the systematic study of magic, is more likely to know Metamagic, than the Sorcerer that spends all their time trying to understand themselves.

FrogReaver, your ‘insight’ into my position is incorrect. I was giving a quick example on a mobile that encapsulated the idea expressed in this thread that Sorcerers are not studious

Then again, you have made similar assertions previously on this thread, impugning someone by saying that some example is ‘revealing’.

It strikes me as a cheap carnival barker trick, and I personally do not appreciate it.

Disagree with me, no problem. Ask clarifying questions, no problem.
Tell me flat out I’m wrong...no problem.

I do not want to be harsh, and no opinion in this thread is incorrect, but as a point of order, I would personally appreciate it if you can refrain from that style, with me, in the future.

Again not wanting to be harsh, but not wanting to read amateur psychoanalysis either.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I could see meta magic working for either sorcerer or wizard. For the sorcerer as we currently have it, it is a natural ability to shape magic. For the wizard, it is the study of the fundamental principles of magic that allows them to alter spells.

Personally, I think that meta magic should have been available for any class that can cast spells, even an eldritch knight might learn to cast their spells in different ways than standard.
If one believes that wizards should be able to learn essentially all magic and learn to modify all magic (at least arcane magic), then that beliefs conclusion is that those who study magic should be able to do everything that the other arcane casters can do and more. I believe that view cannot exist in a class based RPG with multiple full casters.

Consider this - Not arguing power - just theme.

Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.
3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.

All of these things hearken back to the concept of a learned spell caster.

Whereas everything the sorcerer gets (or doesn't get) hearkens to a caster that hasn't learned many spells but has the power to shape them in ways the learned spell casters cannot. In other words, there's still many unknowns about magic - such that wizards only have limited but broad control over it.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yes, it says I believe a person devoted to the systematic study of magic, is more likely to know Metamagic, than the Sorcerer that spends all their time trying to understand themselves.
In other words, I'm spot on. You believe that study is more likely to yield greater power and ability than will come from raw uncultivated talent alone.

That worldview is the issue. It has no place in a class based RPG where there are multiple full casters and only one of them is the studious type.

And why you ask? Because that argument can be applied to any magical ability present in the game.

FrogReaver, your ‘insight’ into my position is incorrect. I was giving a quick example on a mobile that encapsulated the idea expressed in this thread that Sorcerers are not studious
And yet the more you post about it the more my analysis seems to be confirmed

Then again, you have made similar assertions previously on this thread, impugning someone by saying that some example is ‘revealing’.
No I haven't. I think you are mixing me up with someone else.

It strikes me as a cheap carnival barker trick, and I personally do not appreciate it.

Disagree with me, no problem. Ask clarifying questions, no problem.
Tell me flat out I’m wrong...no problem.

I do not want to be harsh, and no opinion in this thread is incorrect, but as a point of order, I would personally appreciate it if you can refrain from that style, with me, in the future.

Again not wanting to be harsh, but not wanting to read amateur psychoanalysis either.
Maybe, except if the analysis is right then none of this stands.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like. I'll even make it easy on you by giving you the list of what you seem to think are class defining spells
  • Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
  • 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
  • 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
  • 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
  • 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
  • 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
  • 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
  • 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
  • 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
  • 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague
It's almost like you know it's such a hollow strawman that you fear to go there to backup your argument.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like. I'll even make it easy on you by giving you the list of what you seem to think are class defining spells
  • Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
  • 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
  • 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
  • 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
  • 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
  • 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
  • 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
  • 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
  • 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
  • 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague
It's almost like you know it's such a hollow strawman that you fear to go there to backup your argument.
You seem to be arguing about power instead of theme. The point isn't which spell - it's that the wizard class has access to a lot of spells. That's in line with his theme as the master of magical study.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
You seem to be arguing about power instead of theme. The point isn't which spell - it's that the wizard class has access to a lot of spells. That's in line with his theme as the master of magical study.
You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like.

You are avoiding the question I've been quite clear through this thread that the sorcerer copies or steals far too much from wizard. You on the other hand keep suggesting that wizards have some gigantic cache of meaningful "toys" as someone put it earlier yet you resort to character assassination & change the subject when pressed for details. Stop avoiding the subject and backup your poor argument or drop the nonsense.
 

Minigiant

Legend
I see it more like Talent vs Trained Skill. RB vs QB.

If there was a Magic ability score, the sorcerer would have an 18-20 Mag. However the sorcerer would have no skill proficiency that use Mag. Because sorcerers don't understand magic. They are just talented at it. They don't know Crestion's formula for magic rune to magic circle ratios. They just know wiggling their middlefinger and saying Wocani makes fire come out.

However a wizard has 10-12 Mag. They could have some magical talent or none at all. However they have expertise in Wizardry skill and get a +4 bonus to wizardry checks. They did Arcanagebra problems and understand the ins and outs of wizardry. That spellbook holds all the formulas, rules, and tricks they can't remember.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I see it more like Talent vs Trained Skill. RB vs QB.

If there was a Magic ability score, the sorcerer would have an 18-20 Mag. However the sorcerer would have no skill proficiency that use Mag. Because sorcerers don't understand magic. They are just talented at it. They don't know Crestion's formula for magic rune to magic circle ratios. They just know wiggling theirmiddlefinger and saying Wocani make fire come out.

However a wizard has 10-12 Mag. They could have some magical talent or none at all. However they have expertise in Wizardry skill and get a +4 bonus to wizardry checks. They did Arcanagebra problem and understand the ins and outs of wizardry. That spellbook holds all the formulas, rules, and tricks they can't remember.
Sure. With the full understanding that the wizards list of rules, tricks and formulas represent less than 1% of what magic is capable of. In short, his studiousness doesn't guarantee him a privleged place when it comes to knowing any particular magical ability.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like.

You are avoiding the question I've been quite clear through this thread that the sorcerer copies or steals far too much from wizard. You on the other hand keep suggesting that wizards have some gigantic cache of meaningful "toys" as someone put it earlier yet you resort to character assassination & change the subject when pressed for details. Stop avoiding the subject and backup your poor argument or drop the nonsense.
Answering the question in a way you don't approve of is not avoiding the question.

Anyways I can repeat myself too:
Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.
3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
Answering the question in a way you don't approve of is not avoiding the question.

Anyways I can repeat myself too:
Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.

3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.
You literally repeated yourself rather than support your argument which are you referring to as something that clearly sets wizard apart. be specific. "There's an answer that supports my position, go find it yourself & make my argument for me" is not support of your position.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You literally repeated yoursef rather than support your argument which are you referring to as something that clearly sets wizard apart. be specific
I was specific. I even gave you a numbered list of the specifics.

To answer this specific question of "what clearly sets the wizard apart". In terms of theme it's his studiousness toward magic.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like. I'll even make it easy on you by giving you the list of what you seem to think are class defining spells
I don't really know what you want out of this. You yourself said it, without certain spells you are irrelevant. What do you want? That sorcerers can no longer do them and be completely irrelevant? (I mean a little more irrelevant, because all of these spells you menation include lots of useful spells like grease, and you omitted must haves that sorcerer doesn't get like rope trick. All of the quality of life and most of the problem solving spells are wizard only. A party with a sorcerer but no wizard just lacks utility. And all of this is irrelevant because wizards simply don't derive identity from spell selection, because it is expected they change it to suit the current and expected situations.)
 

I could see meta magic working for either sorcerer or wizard. For the sorcerer as we currently have it, it is a natural ability to shape magic. For the wizard, it is the study of the fundamental principles of magic that allows them to alter spells.
I'm with this. Metamagic is a pretty malleable mechanic. If the editorial edict came down that metamagic ought to be a wizard class feature, I could justify it as engineer-like tinkering. If the editorial edict came down that it ought to be a sorcerer class feature, I could justify it as artist-like improvisation.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I'm with this. Metamagic is a pretty malleable mechanic. If the editorial edict came down that metamagic ought to be a wizard class feature, I could justify it as engineer-like tinkering. If the editorial edict came down that it ought to be a sorcerer class feature, I could justify it as artist-like improvisation.
I can agree with that. The problem with that from a 5e perspective is that metamagic is really the only feature that sorcerers get in their base class that supports their class theme.
 

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