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5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Sure. With the full understanding that the wizards list of rules, tricks and formulas represent less than 1% of what magic is capable of. In short, his studious doesn't guarantee him a privleged place when it comes to knowing any particular magical ability.
I was specific. I even gave you a numbered list of the specifics.

To answer this specific question of "what clearly sets the wizard apart". In terms of theme it's his studiousness toward magic.
so I'll again ask you what in those vague strawmen are you referring to

@MoonSong I'd rather wizard and sorcerer have different must take spells that were unique rather than a selection of must haves plus a meaningless assortment of spells that range from trap to niche or pointless. You and frog reaver keep bringing up the handful of wizard specific spells as if they are largely meaningful options & when pressed to justify it resort or character assassinations changing of the subject or simply pound the table as if the mere presence of any number of spells on the wizard but not sorcerer list is an argument in itself.
 

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You believe that study is more likely to yield greater power and ability than will come from raw uncultivated talent alone.
No, because a Sorcerer and D&D as a system does not assume ‘uncultivated’ talent.
A Sorcerer is not casting 9th level spells right after character creation, it takes time to develop one’s power, in any class.

D&D believes in the 10,000 hour theory of mastery.

I think I have been very clear, that while I like the 5e Sorcerer in play, I dislike aesthetically the fact the class is riven from the Wizard, and as has been expressed amply, in this 13 page thread, many people come at the classes with the Paradigm: The Wizard is the boring guy with the book and the Sorcerer is Magic.

This is a paradigm shift from before, and this narrow scope, in my opinion hurts both classes.

but hey, if you want to narrow down my statements to thinking I want the Wizard to be the ubermensch, and you won...go for it. I hope it makes you feel better.

Seriously I do.🤗 (Truly Irony free).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
so I'll again ask you what in those vague strawmen are you referring to
No vagueness, no strawman. I told you the wizard's theme is what set it apart. I told you how his class features supported that theme.

...the mere presence of any number of spells on the wizard but not sorcerer list is an argument in itself.
I think you finally stated the argument. Next step - stop your outright dismissal of it.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I can agree with that. The problem with that from a 5e perspective is that metamagic is really the only feature that sorcerers get in their base class that supports their class theme.
Exactly. I could be down with something different, but really the wizard is already too flexible already. (And some school abilities are better than metamagic!)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Exactly. I could be down with something different, but really the wizard is already too flexible already. (And some school abilities are better than metamagic!)
Yep,

If the question is whether the sorcerer could have been designed differently. Absolutely.
If the question is does the sorcerer as currently designed serve a purpose in 5e then I also answer, Absolutely.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
If one believes that wizards should be able to learn essentially all magic and learn to modify all magic (at least arcane magic), then that beliefs conclusion is that those who study magic should be able to do everything that the other arcane casters can do and more. I believe that view cannot exist in a class based RPG with multiple full casters.

Consider this - Not arguing power - just theme.

Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.
3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.

All of these things hearken back to the concept of a learned spell caster.

Whereas everything the sorcerer gets (or doesn't get) hearkens to a caster that hasn't learned many spells but has the power to shape them in ways the learned spell casters cannot. In other words, there's still many unknowns about magic - such that wizards only have limited but broad control over it.
I dont come to the same conclusions as you as to the wizard being able to do everything and I still think metamagic would fit well as something that a wizard could learn. To me, it seems to fit the theme of the learned spellcaster to learn loopholes or alternate casting methods to alter their spells.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
No vagueness, no strawman. I told you the wizard's theme is what set it apart. I told you how his class features supported that theme.



I think you finally stated the argument. Next step - stop your outright dismissal of it.
I'm not dismissing it, I'm asking you to justify why it is relevant to the fact that you & @MoonSong have argued that sorcerer should be everything wizard but with social skills minus spellbook & extra stuff that is mechanically meaningful in play or capable of justifying the raiding & copying of everything in the wizard's. so again I ask you to justify the relevance rather than continuing to admit you were parroting an empty strawman of a point that can not be inflated with anything meaningful to support your desire.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I'm not dismissing it, I'm asking you to justify why it is relevant to the fact that you & @MoonSong have argued that sorcerer should be everything wizard but with social skills minus spellbook & extra stuff that is mechanically meaningful in play
Let me clear this up right here. In terms of mechanics:
The sorcerer shouldn't know as many spells as the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't be able to interchange spells from day to day like the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't have as large of a spell list as the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't be able to cast rituals.
The sorcerer shouldn't have an arcane traditon.

You really seem to be under the impression that sharing many of the same spells with a wizard and having metamagic is leaving the wizard with nothing. That's not the case.

And you are dismissing it - the wizards larger spell list is both a mechanical benefit and something that supports the wizard theme.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I dont come to the same conclusions as you as to the wizard being able to do everything and I still think metamagic would fit well as something that a wizard could learn. To me, it seems to fit the theme of the learned spellcaster to learn loopholes or alternate casting methods to alter their spells.
I mean I can understand how it could be explained for a wizard. I just think it work much much better as the mechanic for how raw-untapped magical power can be altered by the caster of such magic.
 

Is it Metamagic or Font of Magic that defines a Sorcerer?

For me it is Font of Magic, which is a woefully underutilized design space, though with promise on the horizon based off recent U/A entries.

So while I think Metamagic is fair game to add to the Wizard thru a subclass (Arcane Theurge anyone...easy to design subclasses in 5e).....Font of Magic is a red line for me.

Font of Magic should be Sorcerer only.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Is it Metamagic or Font of Magic that defines a Sorcerer?

For me it is Font of Magic, which is a woefully underutilized design space, though with promise on the horizon based off recent U/A entries.

So while I think Metamagic is fair game to add to the Wizard thru a subclass (Arcane Theurge anyone...easy to design subclasses in 5e).....Font of Magic is a red line for me.

Font of Magic should be Sorcerer only.
Font of Magic supports the sorcerers theme. I always lump it into metamagic even though it technically isn't.

That said, in terms of sorcerer class features - metamagic is like 3 of his 6 single classed features.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
@MoonSong I'd rather wizard and sorcerer have different spells that were unique rather than a selection of must haves plus a meaningless assortment of spells that range from trap to niche or pointless. You and frog reaver keep bringing up the handful of wizard specific spells as if they are largely meaningful options & when pressed to justify it resort or character assassinations changing of the subject or simply pound the table as if the mere presence of any number of spells on the wizard but not sorcerer list is an argument in itself.
One, they are an argument. All of the really "magical" magic is in these spells. Can a sorcerer create a demiplane, no she can't, can she summon a magical mansion, again not, can she summon a small house? nop, a small room to rest in? nada, a magical pony? not at all, raise a zombie? ask again, she can't even summon a small kitten! And you tell me there's not theme or identity on these?

And two, 5e is all about recycling mechanics as much as possible. If sorcerer was to have a spell that fulfilled the same purpose as haste, gues what? she just gets haste. If you don't want her to use exactly haste, then she doesn't get to do anything remotely similar to it, period. -these spells are needed to fulfill x or y role in a party- That's why clerics freely poach the wizard list for domain spells. And it is far from a unique case, psion is going to use recycled spells for psionic powers too. Such is the reality of 5e.
 


tetrasodium

Adventurer
Let me clear this up right here. In terms of mechanics:
The sorcerer shouldn't know as many spells as the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't be able to interchange spells from day to day like the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't have as large of a spell list as the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't be able to cast rituals.
The sorcerer shouldn't have an arcane traditon.

You really seem to be under the impression that sharing many of the same spells with a wizard and having metamagic is leaving the wizard with nothing. That's not the case.

And you are dismissing it - the wizards larger spell list is both a mechanical benefit and something that supports the wizard theme.
The warlock is significantly different from wizard on those points because it has so many fewer spell slots & even less spells known than sorcerer. The Sorcerer however thumbs its nose at them by having enough to still have the same must have/right spells that a wizard will have in play. On top of that sorcerer has the same ability to take arcana, a more valuable prime attribute, & the same meaningful/right/must have spells. Rituals are a half baked unfinished cocktail napkin of an idea that despite your beating of that drum largely do very little of value outside of a couple ok to useful spells. it results

One, they are an argument. All of the really "magical" magic is in these spells. Can a sorcerer create a demiplane, no she can't, can she summon a magical mansion, again not, can she summon a small house? nop, a small room to rest in? nada, a magical pony? not at all, raise a zombie? ask again, she can't even summon a small kitten! And you tell me there's not theme or identity on these?

And two, 5e is all about recycling mechanics as much as possible. If sorcerer was to have a spell that fulfilled the same purpose as haste, gues what? she just gets haste. If you don't want her to use exactly haste, then she doesn't get to do anything remotely similar to it, period. -these spells are needed to fulfill x or y role in a party- That's why clerics freely poach the wizard list for domain spells. And it is far from a unique case, psion is going to use recycled spells for psionic powers too. Such is the reality of 5e.
Nice of you to finally admit just how largely irrelevant to play the bits of wizard not stolen or copied by sorcerer areTiny hut, Magnificent mansion, Phantom steed, and the remnant of find familiar+Improved familiar not exclusively stolen by warlock are what you consider to be an identity & theme in play?
 

PsyzhranV2

Adventurer
Nice of you to finally admit just how largely irrelevant to play the bits of wizard not stolen or copied by sorcerer areTiny hut, Magnificent mansion, Phantom steed, and the remnant of find familiar+Improved familiar not exclusively stolen by warlock are what you consider to be an identity & theme in play?
So blasting is the only relevant part of play to you?
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I'm not dismissing it, I'm asking you to justify why it is relevant to the fact that you & @MoonSong have argued that sorcerer should be everything wizard but with social skills minus spellbook & extra stuff that is mechanically meaningful in play or capable of justifying the raiding & copying of everything in the wizard's. so again I ask you to justify the relevance rather than continuing to admit you were parroting an empty strawman of a point that can not be inflated with anything meaningful to support your desire.
Spells aren't markers of identity, they are the tools needed to fulfill a role in the party. Why do Bards and Druids get cure wounds and healing word instead of a custom spell? because they are meant to be able to fulfill the role of healer and these two spells are the tools to fill that role. Why does sorcerer get so many spells the wizard gets too? because she is meant to fill some of the roles wizard fills. She is not meant to fill all of them, and isn't meant to fill only them, never all of them with the same character and specially not at the same time. Wizard? wizard is meant to fill all of these roles with the same character, just at different times.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Spells aren't markers of identity, they are the tools needed to fulfill a role in the party. Why do Bards and Druids get cure wounds and healing word instead of a custom spell? because they are meant to be able to fulfill the role of healer and these two spells are the tools to fill that role. Why does sorcerer get so many spells the wizard gets too? because she is meant to fill some of the roles wizard fills. She is not meant to fill all of them, and isn't meant to fill only them, never all of them with the same character and specially not at the same time. Wizard? wizard is meant to fill all of these roles with the same character, just at different times.
While true, that role heavily contributes to identity & none of those spells you finally admitted to talking about amount to much of a role Bards druids & clerics bring significant class specific abilities to the table beyond just the spell list... Sorcerer is problematic because it does not, it steals & copies too much from wizard to just tack "but improved" onto wizard.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The warlock is significantly different from wizard on those points because it has so many fewer spell slots & even less spells known than sorcerer.
No one is talking about the crappy warlock.

The Sorcerer however thumbs its nose at them by having enough to still have the same must have/right spells that a wizard will have in play. On top of that sorcerer has the same ability to take arcana, a more valuable prime attribute, & the same meaningful/right/must have spells. Rituals are a half baked unfinished cocktail napkin of an idea that despite your beating of that drum largely do very little of value outside of a couple ok to useful spells. it results
I actually love rituals but since you want specific spells. Let's look at a level 5 sorcerer and a level 5 wizard. Now I want you to fill the sorcerers list out with all the must have wizard spells he can take that you are talking about. Then I will pick those spells and spells the sorcerer doesn't have for the wizard. Let's see what you're missing out on.
 

Font of Magic supports the sorcerers role. I always lump it into metamagic even though it technically isn't.
Why wouldn’t you, the D&D design team buried the lead! 😄
Sorcerers have the better subclasses, most drip with flavor...( not all...cough, Divine Soul).

I love the book, Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny, and the Shadow Sorcerer nails it.
All ‘10’s by the judges, even the East German Judge.

I’m not sure how to roleplay a Conjurer Wiz....the school has no readily accessible theme. Same for the Transmuter, the Druid is a better Transmuter, Master of Form than the Transmuter.

A school of magic is not an evocative basis to form a character identity, (the Evocation school is of course literally exempt from that statement), just as having a mythological, aquatic figure tossing a scimitar at one’s head is no basis for a government.

Wild Mage, Shadow Sorcerer...ideas of how to play it just spring to mind. Which is why after the novelty factor of Specialist Wizards wore off, people in my corner of 2e stopped playing them. Too boring, too restrictive in concept.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
The warlock is significantly different from wizard on those points because it has so many fewer spell slots & even less spells known than sorcerer.
The warlock has significatively more spells known than a sorcerer, the warlock caps at 19 + any invocation/spells that he chooses.
 

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