D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[FrogReaver]

if the sorcerer is not different from the wizard, why is it justified existing. Barbarian fighter rogue pally & ranger are all very different with very different abilities of their own. Wizard and sorcerer are mostly their spell lists but those lists are almost entirely overlapping but the sorcerer has a more useful prime stat and almost all of the wizard's skill options plus a few social options, all of the wizard proficiencies plus many more, etc.

Yes it is necessary for sorcerer to find its own place & that place needs to be something other than "social but almost everything meaningful or class defining a wizard can do plus some extra stuff"

Thematically the sorcerer is very different than the wizard - just not very different mechanically. Thematic distinctions are more important than mechanical ones IMO.

 

[tetrasodium]

Thematically the sorcerer is very different than the wizard - just not very different mechanically. Thematic distinctions are more important than mechanical ones IMO.

The mechanics need to back up those thematic differences if sorcerer deserves to exist as a mechanically discrete class rather than maybe an archtype under wizard like child of khyber "crappy wizard" who uses a genetic (or whatever) ability to fake it as described here.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Off-topic, but I wonder what that'd look like.

I can imagine something similar to the way "World of Darkness" creatures gather power. While arcane classes get their spells by studying from a book, focusing on their magical heritage or making deals with a patron, divine casters would be able to fuel their spells by doing things that pleases their God.

 

[MoonSong]

I don't understand the focus on sorcerers needing to have vastly different underlying mechanics than a wizard. Why is this a good thing, why is it even necessary?

Well, it is a mid point. You want mechanics that reinforce the theme and to avoid mechanics that get in the way. Wizard up to 4th edition was basically all mechanics in the way.

WotC: We've been thinking about sorcerers a lot and we've got a bold new idea for it. Check it out. Is this direction you want to see the class go?
Community: Not really, no.
WotC: Okay, noted. Too far out? Let's go in the other direction and merge all the arcanists into this mage. Is this the direction you want to see the class go?
Community: Definitely not.
WotC: Okay, too far in the other direction. So we're going to go down the middle now and write a sorcerer mostly like it was in 3E.

More like
WotC: We've been thinking about sorcerers a lot and we've got a bold new idea for it. Check it out. Is this direction you want to see the class go?
Community: Cool, like it, but something is odd with it.
Wizard players: Wait, spellpoints? we want spellpoints too!
WotC: Okay, noted. Let's make spellcasting modular. Here, have the cleric system for now.
Wizard players: Cool! Wait, with this we don't need sorcerers anymore!!
WotC: Let's go in that direction
Wizard players: We love it!
WotC: And merge psions and everything else into this mage too! Is this the direction you want to see the class go?
Community: Definitely not.
Sorcerer players: Wait, the playtest is almost over, what happened to the sorcerer?
WotC: ... here, take this halfbaked unbalanced thing. Now shut up.

 

[tetrasodium]

I can imagine something similar to the way "World of Darkness" creatures gather power. While arcane classes get their spells by studying from a book, focusing on their magical heritage or making deals with a patron, divine casters would be able to fuel their spells by doing things that pleases their God.

There are so many systems & works of fiction that manage to do things along those lines & more that it boggles the mind how so many people could honestly express confusion over how it could be done or what it would look like.

@MoonSong your using a really wide brush for that "wizard players" grouping . As a GM I despise how badly sorcerer copies from wizard & tops it off with extra toys, it makes for a very difficult balancing act if I have a sorcerer pretending he's a wizard at the same table as an actual wizard.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, it is a mid point. You want mechanics that reinforce the theme and to avoid mechanics that get in the way. Wizard up to 4th edition was basically all mechanics in the way.

Right. Even the 5e wizard has mechanics get in the way of producing a sorcerer theme.

So maybe start here, what sorcerer mechanic get's in the way of the sorcerer theme?

 

[tetrasodium]

Right. Even the 5e wizard has mechanics get in the way of producing a sorcerer theme.

So maybe start here, what sorcerer mechanic get's in the way of the sorcerer theme?

maybe the sorcerer should start by getting out of the wizard's designspace to some significant degree?

 

[FrogReaver]

maybe the sorcerer should start by getting out of the wizard's designspace?

What does the sorcerer have that is remotely wizard themed?

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

What does the sorcerer have that is remotely wizard themed?

casting spells.

everyone knows that's a wizard only thing.

 

[tetrasodium]

What does the sorcerer have that is remotely wizard themed?

you having trouble keeping up? I went over the proficiencyskill overlap here... but here it is again.
Wizard:
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs,
light crossbows
Tools: None
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion

Sorcerer
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons (ie light crossbows plus club, dagger, greatclub, handaxe, javelin, light hammer, mace, quarterstaff, sickle, spear, unarmed strike, dart, shortbow, & sling)
Tools: None

and here is the spell list overlap

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

So on & so forth but 6th level spells on on is well into the point where campaigns have ended or are ending & wotc's own numbers from ddb support that. No doubt there are a handful of useful spells in wizard list but not sorc list... problem being is that almost every single one of the "right spells" as people have been labeling them are on both lists & the spells unique to wizard or ritual spells are not enough to build any kind of meaningful theme or niche around.... If paladin, ranger, EK, & AT had this kind of overlap in so much of their class features people would wonder why they were different classes.