While I was at work in a meeting I was pondering these ideas for sorcerer
Remove all current sorcerer damage cantrips
Create new damage cantrips that emphasis raw magic. Possibly convert old 4e sorcerer cantrips
Remove Metamagic
At 3rd, 10th, and 17th levels, Sorcerers get 1 Source of Sorcery .
Aura of Raw Magic: Glow in a 20ft bright light that gives you resistance to "elemental" damage for 5 turns per sorcery point spent.
Arcane Wellspring: Gain sorcery points equal to your Charisma modifier
Brainblast Spend 2 sorcery points to gain Proficiency with skill for one Ability Check
Essence of Magic: Spend a sorcery point to automatically succeed concentration
Primordial Boon. Spend a sorcery point to use Charisma for single any Ability check.
Mind over Magic: Spend sorcery point equal a spell level when casting a spell. You no longer need to concentrate to maintain it
Reckless Cast. Reckless Attack but only for attack from spells
Rip from the Heavens: Choose a cleric domain. You can cast spells from that domain with sorcery points
Sorcerous Surge. Action Surge but only to cast spells
Wrath of Arcane Blood: Use an action and 1 sorcery point to fire a 60ft range bolt to deals 1d12 damage. Spend more sorcery points for more damage and range.
There really, really is. Because the wizard has way more spells not on the Sorcerer list than the Sorcerer has spells not on the Wizard's list. There are 93 spells the wizard gets that the Sorcerer does not, just in the PH.
Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Bigby's Hand
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Wall of Force
Contingency
Create Undead
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Wall of Ice
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Feeblemind
Maze
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird
The Sorcerer has 7 spells not shared with the Wizard.
Enhance Ability
Daylight
Water Walk
Dominate Beast
Insect Plague
Fire Storm
Earthquake
93 > 7 objective fact.
It's the Sorcerer that's hurting in that comparison.
Do we have to get Charlie Sheen in here to ask the Wizard "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"
Because that sounds like the point you're actually making.
I'm not the one who brought up the larger spell list, in fact I pointed out that too much of it is shared and listed the spells, however again you do your best to avoid details that cause so much of your argument to crumble. A while back Wotc/dndbeyond released some statistics on levels of actual characters that get played. 93 certainly sounds like a massive & impressive number.... except
earlier I covered the spells level 1-5 that wizard alone has & noted that most campaigns end by then so continuing on 6th-9th was silly, but again you are yammering on that number across all levels. Here are the35 spells unique to wizard from levels 6-9. That amounts to character level 11 to 20...or.... nine percent of all campaigns.. but 16 of those spells will only be seen by two percent of campaigns with the remaining 19 only seen by six percent of campaigns. Your argument about 93 spells unique to wizard holds roughly the same weight as people who point at the moon druid level 20 capstone & cry OP.
While you & a few others froth at the mouth about things like the number 93 when most are only seen in a tiny fraction of games, you ignore the fact that even among the levels where seventy percent of games play in there is well... not much across those 28 spells. The first person in this thread named off five spells as being "top couple tier" out of those 93 spells you keep shouting about....
do you want to try again but this time make an argument rooted in parts of the game relevant to something more like a significant percentage of campaigns? If that's too difficult maybe even limit yourself to arguments that are relevant to more than a tiny fraction of them?
edit: here are 6-9th level spells unique to wizard. There are some nice ones sure, but only nine percent of campaigns will ever even get to the 6th level spells & it drops fast the percent who will continue
9th level
Astral Projection, Foresight, Imprisonment, Prismatic Wall, Shape Change, True Polymorph
Weird
8th Level
Antimagic Field, Antipathy/Sympathy, Clone, Control Weather, Demiplane, Feeblemind, Maze, Mindblank, Power Word Stun, Telepathy, Trap the Soul
7th Level
Force Cage, Mirage Arcane, Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen's Sword, Project Image, Sequester, Simulacrum, Symbol
6th Level
Contingency, Create Undead, Instant Summons, Flesh to Stone, Guards & wards, Magic Jar, Freezing Sphere, Irresistable Dance, Programmed Illusion
I think the 5e wizard shouldn't have many of the things the 3.x wizard had. I think the 5e wizard is still plenty powerful enough and thematic enough without those things. Is that something we can all agree on?
In the end is the flavor, theme and roles the community picked and the designers worked on for over two years. The designers wanted something more generic, but the wizard iconicity won in the end. If the wizard is incomplete, then no class is truly complete. Sadly it seems that whatever you and I say will only fall on deaf ears.
Nothing out of the ordinary, but I get the feeling I'm not the only one that codes the wiz male and the sor female. (I blame it sounding so close to soror-sister)
Wizard Spells known at level 5 vs Sorcerer spells known at level 5
I think this comparison speaks for itself.
Also, notice how I only needed to use 1 spell on the exclusive wizard list to make a really outstanding wizard list, but the sorcerer even without that spell can barely take enough spells to cover the combat pillar.
Edit: Updated list due to error on level 3 spells known by wizard.
Also, notice how I only needed to use 1 spell on the exclusive wizard list to make a really outstanding wizard list, but the sorcerer even without that spell can barely take enough spells to cover the combat pillar.
Where is the list from? If it's just one you made up then I'm not sure it's really saying anything. Also, since it looks like you're only looking at the spells chosen as the wizard levels up, they should only know 2 3rd level spells at most at level 5.
Where is the list from? If it's just one you made up then I'm not sure it's really saying anything. Also, since it looks like you're only looking at the spells chosen as the wizard levels up, they should only know 2 3rd level spells at most at level 5.
