D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[FrogReaver]

@tetrasodium

Let's look at a level 5 sorcerer and a level 5 wizard. Now I want you to fill the sorcerers list out with all the must have wizard spells he can take that you are talking about. Then I will pick those spells and spells the sorcerer doesn't have for the wizard. Let's see what you're missing out on.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is it just me or does @tetrasodium's argument boils down to "wizards in 5e do not getting everything they did in 3.x and if they can't have those things then no one can"

 

[FrogReaver]

I think the 5e wizard shouldn't have many of the things the 3.x wizard had. I think the 5e wizard is still plenty powerful enough and thematic enough without those things. Is that something we can all agree on?

 

[tetrasodium]

Is it just me or does @tetrasodium's argument boils down to "wizards in 5e do not getting everything they did in 3.x and if they can't have those things then no one can"

if you deliberately ignore large parts of it sure. the spell list is the same on almost every meaningful level. The core class features are out to lunch & classes with what is largely the same spell list bring significant class specific toys to the table on top of their archtype specific ones. Wizards have a spellbook, a half finished ritual soellbook, and mostly late game archtype features to set them apart from classes with most of the same spells.

I think the 5e wizard shouldn't have many of the things the 3.x wizard had. I think the 5e wizard is still plenty powerful enough and thematic enough without those things. Is that something we can all agree on?

"Many" is a poor choice of words in this case because it's an imprecise undefined number used in a subjective context. every bonus feat it had in 3.5? probably not, some of the later ones are archtype features. one or two in the core class?... yea... definitely so. Somewhere in between like fighters ?... Yea strong maybe or even possibly depending on if wotc ever plans to finish fleshing out ritual spells beyond their notes on a cocktail napkin made during lunch status & to what extent/direction.

as to your other question...
There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list. Rather than getting lost on an endless subjective debate over if a wizard should be a glass cannon, battlefield control, batman, etc & to what degrees... How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells in the much smaller handful of wizard specific spells not shared by sorcerer in the section of the spell list copied to sorcerer? There are only a handful of wizard spells each level that are not copied to the sorcerer list, it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the thread

 

[Fenris-77]

My list of top couple of tier spells the Wizard gets that the Sorcerer doesn't at level 5:

1st - Find Familiar, Tasha's, Fog Cloud
2nd - Nothing key
3rd - Leomund's Tiny Hut, Animate Dead

And that's it. Nothing I'd really miss in a pinch except maybe Find Familiar.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list.

There really, really is. Because the wizard has way more spells not on the Sorcerer list than the Sorcerer has spells not on the Wizard's list. There are 93 spells the wizard gets that the Sorcerer does not, just in the PH.

Spoiler

Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Bigby's Hand
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Wall of Force
Contingency
Create Undead
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Wall of Ice
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Feeblemind
Maze
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird

The Sorcerer has 7 spells not shared with the Wizard.

Spoiler

Enhance Ability
Daylight
Water Walk
Dominate Beast
Insect Plague
Fire Storm
Earthquake

93 > 7 objective fact.

It's the Sorcerer that's hurting in that comparison.


Do we have to get Charlie Sheen in here to ask the Wizard "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"
Because that sounds like the point you're actually making.

 

[Fenris-77]

There really, really is. Because the wizard has way more spells not on the Sorcerer list than the Sorcerer has spells not on the Wizard's list. There are 93 spells the wizard gets that the Sorcerer does not, just in the PH.

Spoiler: Snip

Spoiler

Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Bigby's Hand
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Wall of Force
Contingency
Create Undead
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Wall of Ice
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Feeblemind
Maze
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird

The Sorcerer has 7 spells not shared with the Wizard.

Spoiler

Enhance Ability
Daylight
Water Walk
Dominate Beast
Insect Plague
Fire Storm
Earthquake

93 > 7 objective fact.

It's the Sorcerer that's hurting in that comparison.

Do we have to get Charlie Sheen in here to ask the Wizard "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"
Because that sounds like the point you're actually making.

And this would be why I play Wizards and not Sorcerers. It's the spells know and overall utility difference, not the presence or absence of top tier spells. I love the idea of metamagic, but I really don't like the spells know restrictions.

 

[MoonSong]

@tetrasodium Ok, let's assume that 47% of the wizard list is completely useless and might as well not be there. You also say that wizard has a poorer casting stat, that Arcana in the sorcerer infringes too much on the wizard niche, and that it has stolen both most of the wizard good mechanics and all of the interesting themes. Also that the mechanical overlap is collectively so much that you can't distinguish them in play and sorcerer is wizard plus because of this.

The only solution I can think of is to well:

Sorcerous Origin: Wizardry Not all sorcerers are uneducated and illiterate. Many are born with just a humble spark that needs to be harnessed, controlled and nurtured through tireless study under the guide of a mentor. These sorcerers are known as wizards. 1st Level Academy learning You gain training in Arcana, History, Religion and Medicine. You also gain expertise in one of these skills. Wizardry Through you studies you have untapped the possibility of manipulating your own magic. However the details are long and hard to remember. Pick a school of magic, you gain a spell book which contains a number of first level spells of that school equal to 1+ your intelligence modifier. You can choose one of the spells in your book and add it to your spells known until you finish a long rest. You also learn two first level rituals of your choice and write them in your spellbook. If you find a scroll or a spellbook with spells of your chosen school or rituals of a level you can cast, you can copy them to your book at the cost of 50gp per spell level. 6th level Weave Manipulation When you cast a spell from your chosen school that requires a saving throw, you can spend 2 sorcery points to add your intelligence modifier to the spell DC of that spell. 14th level Improved Wizardry Starting at 14th level, you can now prepare a number of spells from your spellbook equal to you intelligence modifier. 18th level Arcane recovery When the target of a spell you cast from your chosen school fails its saving throw, you recover sorcery points equal to that spell's level. You need to complete a long rest before you use this ability again.

And we forget the wizard class?

 

[SkidAce]

Unique Sorcerer powers fueled off Sorcery Points is my preferred method. So, an emphatic yes to unique Sorc Powers, but do not make them spells.

People will still try to optimize, but Sorcery Point gain is at a slow rate, and I think in some ways will inhibit multiclassing as the multi-class spell casting rules will not impact Sorcery Points.

I like this idea.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

This whole screed reads like the Wizard punching out all the Sorcerer's teeth while screaming "look what you made me do!"

Is it by any chance possible to have this conversation about a fun game of make-believe without allusions to domestic violence?