One D&D Grappling

I have no desire to return to the days of calculating a whole different CMD that only gets used once every five fights and ten characters.
You and me both buddy.
I rarely see a combat oriented PC with AC less than 18 and usually considerably higher. I rarely see monsters with AC more than 18.
I find this very implausible but obviously I can't disprove what your personal experiences are. It's quite difficult to get AC18 for a lower-level PC though, especially if they're not DEX-based or in Heavy Armour and not covered in magic items.
It’s also scales in continuing, because the save DC keys of proficiency. I really don’t understand what you mean when you say it doesn’t scale.
I mean there's no way for the player to scale it, so it's never going to be any higher than the default value. Whereas with the previous Grapple you could find ways to scale it, like getting Advantage on the STR check. So no, it doesn't scale in the sense I mean. At all.
Any decision to shove has to be balanced against the fact that you might just kill the person and not worry about the grapple at all.
That's not realistic given 5E's "bag of HP" approach to monsters. You don't randomly surprise-kill monsters with a melee attack in 5E. You'll know if you're close to the point where you'd be better off killing them.
 

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Oh dear dear, no. This is such a mangling of the common sense rules. I don’t believe a sensible DM can look at a veteran with two attacks and say that the equivalent PC can shove instead of an attack but that veteran has to give up all their attacks.

A shove doesn’t do damage so replace the attack with the consequences of shove. This can be easily applied to every monster reasonably capable of shoving someone.
You're proving my point :)
 

TheSword

Legend
You and me both buddy.

I find this very implausible but obviously I can't disprove what your personal experiences are. It's quite difficult to get AC18 for a lower-level PC though, especially if they're not DEX-based or in Heavy Armour and not covered in magic items.
You’ve just named the two most common types of combat fighters. Dex based and armoured.

There are plenty more… Even low optimized character in our games would have AC 16 as a base as an absolute minimum. Easily increased if they want to add any effort into it.

I mean there's no way for the player to scale it, so it's never going to be any higher than the default value. Whereas with the previous Grapple you could find ways to scale it, like getting Advantage on the STR check. So no, it doesn't scale in the sense I mean. At all.

That's not realistic given 5E's "bag of HP" approach to monsters. You don't randomly surprise-kill monsters with a melee attack in 5E. You'll know if you're close to the point where you'd be better off killing them.
The myriad ways to improve to hit roles also improve grapples. I’m really struggling to work out why you think grappling will be difficult for PCs to do?
 


There are plenty more… Even low optimized character in our games would have AC 16 as a base as an absolute minimum. Easily increased if they want to add any effort into it.
Jesus lol. I'm not even going to argue with that.
The myriad ways to improve to hit roles also improve grapples. I’m really struggling to work out why you think grappling will be difficult for PCs to do?
Because it's going to get broken immediately repeatedly? The save DC is much easier for monsters to hit than a STR PC with Athletics was to beat in an opposed roll, esp. given virtually every monster you might want to grapple has either a good STR or a good DEX (and they get to choose! Very nice! Do I get to choose to roll WIS or INT to break Domination?). And Shove is much, much easier to land than that opposed roll too. And in your game, a three-attack multi-attacker can Shove three times!
 

TheSword

Legend
Jesus lol. I'm not even going to argue with that.

Because it's going to get broken immediately repeatedly? The save DC is much easier for monsters to hit than a STR PC with Athletics was to beat in an opposed roll, esp. given virtually every monster you might want to grapple has either a good STR or a good DEX (and they get to choose! Very nice! Do I get to choose to roll WIS or INT to break Domination?). And Shove is much, much easier to land than that opposed roll too. And in your game, a three-attack multi-attacker can Shove three times!
Yes, because grappling someone is more useful now and also people should be able to break grapples and start them.

So that three attack troll, has a 50% chance of breaking grapple by shoving an AC 18 PC at the cost of one of its attacks. So it will give up on average two attacks to shove that PC off - at the cost of the players attack that will realistically have a 66% of succeeding. That sounds like good odds to me. If that troll decides to fight it out instead they have 50% chance of breaking free of a str based grappler Pc without effort but will have been unable to mover or be penalized for attacking other in that round. Meanwhile the rest of the party is acting.

What is the problem with this scenario. Or feel free to present another one.
 
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FitzTheRuke

Legend
What concerns me is that when you grapple someone, the only ways for them to be freed before the end of their next turn is for you to be incapacitated, or for them to be force moved out of your grapple's range. Other than that, the target is locked down.

This can be a nasty way to lock down a powerful melee force for a couple rounds of combat by using a fairly minor ally. If you're a PC, that may be a summons. If you're a bad guy it could be a CR 1/2 toss in during a high level encounter.

Not being able to break the grapple through trying to escape can lock PCs out of the main combat. It can keep powerful bruisers totally away from the PCs.

I think they really need to reintroduce a way for PCs to sacrifice an attack in order to break a grapple during their turn.
I think the escape action will exist.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Old rules felt exploitable and basically forced you to either have acrobatics or athletics to break free of a grapple.
And now you need either DEX saves or STR saves to have a decent chance. Picking up a skill is MUCH easier than gaining a save you don't already have.

Now, the only class that should be decent at escaping grapples via saves that doesn't have either of these is Paladin. Otherwise, the division is evenly split 6/6 get to add proficiency bonus when attempting to escape grapples.
 

And now you need either DEX saves or STR saves to have a decent chance. Picking up a skill is MUCH easier than gaining a save you don't already have.

Now, the only class that should be decent at escaping grapples via saves that doesn't have either of these is Paladin. Otherwise, the division is evenly split 6/6 get to add proficiency bonus when attempting to escape grapples.

But it is no skill tax. This is more important. And spellcasters will have no easy way to be good at grappling. Which is fair for martials.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
But it is no skill tax. This is more important. And spellcasters will have no easy way to be good at grappling. Which is fair for martials.
Mostly I agree, I was more pointing out the difference.

But I don't see it as a skill tax, either. Both skills are useful for other things in the game, so are valuable any way.

Of course we know DEX is KING, and a lot of that even rolls over into the saves as it is a strong save.

Regardless, I don't care either way as a far as attack vs. ability check, I just don't want it to be FREE at the end of the round! Give it some action cost (attack, bonus action, reaction even... something).
 

kapars

Explorer
Oh dear dear, no. This is such a mangling of the common sense rules. I don’t believe a sensible DM can look at a veteran with two attacks and say that the equivalent PC can shove instead of an attack but that veteran has to give up all their attacks.

A shove doesn’t do damage so replace the attack with the consequences of shove. This can be easily applied to every monster reasonably capable of shoving someone.
Monsters and players do not follow the same rules though. There’s nothing that says the monster gains Extra Attack and MotM has monsters that can cast spells as part of the multi-attack, something that players cannot do. Some monsters add damage dice to their weapons as a means of scaling attacks, not something PCs can do either. We even have precedent for PC specific abilities now with Critical hits, though those may change.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I do however think, that for grapple, the restriction that you can't grapple large creatures should fall. Instead it should be a grab and attach yourself to the creature.

Just checking what you meant here. Currently with the OD&D rules, a large creature can be grappled by a medium creature, with no penalties or bonuses on either side.

I do think small characters are heavily harmed though, since they can't grapple large, but everyone can grapple them. You can't really fix that though, unless you give them a massive boost against unarmed strikes. Advantage on the save to escape could make sense, but then do you give the same to large? I don't think so.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Can't you just use an help action to give an enemy disadvantage at no risk of failure?

No? You can use the Help Action to give an ally advantage, but as far as I know you can't inflict disadvantage on enemy attacks with the help action.

@ OP

In any case, I dislike that you have to hit AC. When a creature is hard or impossible to hit, you could target another ability and, at least, prevent them from moving towards the more squishy members of the party or move them away from wounded allies. Now your only option in combat is to target AC. It's boring. Less options in combat is a bad change.

There are issues with targeting a high AC creature. Won't deny that. But the only other solution is to keep it with skills, and that system had clear and obvious problems since it prioritized the wrong classes.

And there are ways to make targetting a high AC easier, and in fact the unarmed strike changes DO give you ways to counter high AC. One ally can use the help action, and you can do an unarmed strike to knock prone, giving everyone advantage. This is a very solid way to deal with high AC enemies, which were always hittable anyways.

Making it an auto-save at the end of the creature's round is a bad change. It should require the monster's action to trigger the save at least or require at least one of their attacks or something.

I could see making it an attack to break free, but I honestly like the auto-save. It fits with the design of every other condition which gives saves at the end of turns, and it gives the player a choice. Do they try for two attempts to break free, or rely on that save?

More options is good.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Because it's going to get broken immediately repeatedly? The save DC is much easier for monsters to hit than a STR PC with Athletics was to beat in an opposed roll, esp. given virtually every monster you might want to grapple has either a good STR or a good DEX (and they get to choose! Very nice! Do I get to choose to roll WIS or INT to break Domination?). And Shove is much, much easier to land than that opposed roll too. And in your game, a three-attack multi-attacker can Shove three times!

Can you actually explain why breaking the grapple after one turn ruins grappling? Let's take the expected route. Monster saves at end of turn, breaks free. Why is this bad?

Because the PC will have to re-grapple them? You were one of the people who told me that you need to grapple "with a tactical purpose". That generally means dragging them to something dangerous to stand in. Well, by the end of their turn... they are still standing in it. If getting them in it was worth your attack once, isn't it worth it again?

And don't deflect to shoving, we can discuss shoving next. I want to know why this save to end is so horrible.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
If a medium creature grapples a large, really strong creature, the large creature can't drag them, correct? I have no idea what I want grapple to be, but I'm pretty sure we aren't there yet. I wonder what a really good set of grappling rules looks like.
 





If a medium creature grapples a large, really strong creature, the large creature can't drag them, correct?
Yes. The grapple condition applies to the target and sets their speed to 0, so while they could grapple back, they still couldn't move anywhere.

While a Large critter dragging someone grappling them along with them seems realistic, it would also affect mostly just martials, who really don't need that.
 

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