One Progression to Rule Them All....

[Commonblade]

Here is my guesses...

Defender: +2 Fort +1 Refl +0 Will, (d10), +1 BAB (At 1st and every 4 lvls after), Str Skills (4)
Leader: +1 Fort +0 Refl +2 Will, (d8), "Buff" Aura, Cha Skills (4)
Controller: +0 Fort +1 Refl +2 Will, (d4), "Debuff" Effect, Int Skills (4)
Striker: +1 Fort +2 Refl +0 Will, (d6), Bonus Damage, Dex Skills (4)

Everyone is 3/4 BAB

Power Source
Martial: +1 Armor Bonus (At 1st and every 4 levels after), +2 HP per level, +1 Fort, Bonus Dex Skills (2)
Divine: +2 Will, Lay on Hands, Bonus Wisdom Skills (2)
Arcane: Eldritch Blast(type), +1 Will, +1 Reflex Bonus Int Skills (2)

AC = 10 + Dex + (Armor or 1/2 Level) + Shield + Class Bonus + Magic
Fort = 10 + Class Bonus + Con + Level + Magic
Refl = 10 + Class Bonus + Dex + Level + Magic
Will = 10 + Class Bonus + Wis + Level + Magic

I know, missing so specifics but that’s what I think...

 

[Sadrik]

Remember stat mods in 4th are:
stat/2 -5 +1/2 level
So a level 10 defender with a 18 STR would have a +9 STR mod. I think at the most basic level this takes care of BAB all together (scaling bonus, note also this takes care of the scaling of skills and saves etc).

The question is are there going to be bonuses added on top of that?

I think there probably will be. They will come from classes and from abilities.
Obviously the fighter should have some bonus over non-fighting classes other than simply from having a higher STR. And some abilities should give a bonus to hit when activated.

It was said that it matters what weapon the fighter selects- this could be where it matters.

So Fighter w/ 18 STR at level 1 gets: +8 to hit?
Wizard w/ 7 STR at level 1 gets: -1 to hit

At level 10, Fighter w/ 18 STR gets +13 to hit
At level 10, Wizard w/ 7 STR gets +4 to hit

Level 1 Fighter w/ 10 STR (for some reason) Gets +4 to hit, and +9 at level 10
Level 1 Wizard w/ 10 STR gets +1 to hit, and +6 at level 10.

It definately makes stats much more important than leveling this way-- but I like that average characters don't have really huge differences.

Just thought of something-- would a Wizard using a spell get to use INT as the stat to hit? That'd be neat. Maybe a fighter using his wuxia special abilities would have to use a stat other than STR or Dex. That'd be neat too.

 

[Sadrik]

Actually that would be a 9 point difference, but factoring in expected stat disparities that will easily head into 13-14+ point differences and that is too much. Plus, suddenly doubling your bonus at Paragon (11th) and Epic (21st) levels is too large a single level jump as well.

However, I would expect a 1st level class bonus on top of a Base Attack Progression that applies to all characters. Expected stat differences and perhaps minor additional bonuses will provide all the meaninful difference you'd need between the classes. Once you go beyond ~10 point difference between your weakest and strongest characters you start running into problems.

I agree, it is a big jump the numbers I listed could be softened a bit something more like
heroic/paragon/epic
Defender
3/6/9
striker/leader
2/4/6
controller
1/2/3

That way there is only a 6 point differential between a heroic defender and controller. Also, gain +3 to hit and damage at 11th and 21st is nice but not like omg now slay everything.

Example of 30th level disparity
20 STR defender: +29
10 STR controller: +18

That is a 10 point difference but that is about as extreme as it gets. And besides the controller should get clobbered by the defender in melee.

 

[Commonblade]

Remember stat mods in 4th are:
stat/2 -5 +1/2 level
.

Whoa! Where is this from? I have totally missed this. Can someone link me to this info?

 

[Sadrik]

From here:

Spined Devil
Medium Immortal Humanoid (Devil)
Level 6 Skirmisher

Init +5 Speed 5 Fly 7

Senses Nethersight, Perception +5

Resists Fire 20

AC 20 Fort 18 Ref 18 Will 18

HP/Blooded 47/23

ATTACKS
Melee 2 claws +9 vs AC each; 2d4+4
Spine Rain Standard, Ranged 10; +9 Dex vs. Ref; 1d6+2 + 2d6 Fire AND Poison 5, Slowed while Poisoned.

SKILLS Spot +10

Str +7(19) Dex +5(14) Con +5(15) Int +5(15) Wis +5(14) Cha +5(15)

Also looking at this again. It looks like it uses its natural STR for damage regardless and it does have a +2 to hit from somewhere. Skirmisher == Striker???

 

[Commonblade]

From here:

Spined Devil
Medium Immortal Humanoid (Devil)
Level 6 Skirmisher

Init +5 Speed 5 Fly 7

Senses Nethersight, Perception +5

Resists Fire 20

AC 20 Fort 18 Ref 18 Will 18

HP/Blooded 47/23

ATTACKS
Melee 2 claws +9 vs AC each; 2d4+4
Spine Rain Standard, Ranged 10; +9 Dex vs. Ref; 1d6+2 + 2d6 Fire AND Poison 5, Slowed while Poisoned.

SKILLS Spot +10

Str +7(19) Dex +5(14) Con +5(15) Int +5(15) Wis +5(14) Cha +5(15)

Also looking at this again. It looks like it uses its natural STR for damage regardless and it does have a +2 to hit from somewhere. Skirmisher == Striker???

Thanks. I noticed the diffrence in strength too. So taking melee attacks it has its STR(7)+2 = 9. Is the +2 a skermisher bonus? Bonus every 3 levels? How come the Ranged attack is still +9? Maybe skermishers get a bonus to ranged attacks? While the system makes sense I don't see this as an improvement. Seems actually more complicated.

A Skirmisher is one of the monster types. like Brute and Lurker.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Whoa! Where is this from? I have totally missed this. Can someone link me to this info?

Only for ability checks and Skill checks, if you notice the damage for the claws is still +4 (19 Str).

 

[Baby Samurai]

who said there will be Hit Dice?

Exactly, judging from the Spined Devils stats there is now only "Level", instead of the HD/CR/LA/ECL/EL cornucopia of madness

 

[Irda Ranger]

Remember stat mods in 4th are:
stat/2 -5 +1/2 level
So a level 10 defender with a 18 STR would have a +9 STR mod. I think at the most basic level this takes care of BAB all together (scaling bonus, note also this takes care of the scaling of skills and saves etc).

IIRC, this is wrong. Stat bonuses do not go up with level. They are fixed at (Stat-2)/2. This way the 3-18 spread starts with +0 at '3' and increases by +1 at even numbers (4-5 is +1; 6-7 is +2; etc.)

 

[Baby Samurai]

IIRC, this is wrong. Stat bonuses do not go up with level. They are fixed at (Stat-2)/2. This way the 3-18 spread starts with +0 at '3' and increases by +1 at even numbers (4-5 is +1; 6-7 is +2; etc.)

I thought this was all wild speculation on the part of one poster trying to make sense of the Spined Devil stats?

The claw damage for the Spined Devil is still +4, as it currently is for a 19 Str.