D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Micah Sweet]

We know that Divine and Primal draw their magics from the Outer Planes and Inner Planes (which presumably includes the four elements, feywild and shadowfell now) respectively. Warlocks are taught arcane magic from the perspective of extra planar beings, which presumably works either akin to wizard magic or cleric magic, depending on player/DM. Sorcerers are inevitably pulling the magic from inside themselves out. Bardcraft is supposedly Words of Power on crack. Artificers use magic inherent in the tools and raw resources they use.

Every setting does wizard magic slightly differently. Forgotten Realms has the Weave, which is just a mix of all the planar energies freefloating around that Mystra puts in order. Eberron wizards pull energy from the Ring of Siberys. Dragonlance? Wizard magic comes from the Moons- period. Dark Suns (RIP, eaten by a black hole too soon) has wizards stealing life energy to power their magics. Its all taking floating energy in the environment and shaping it. What that energy is differs, however.

Anyways. Power sources are pretty well defined, even if there's some variation based on individual settings.

Yet I don't see anything in there about "martial power". Because outside of 4e, that isn't a thing in D&D.

 

[Mephista]

Cool, although the cleric stuff makes the whole thing supernatural to my mind.

Certainly, Lairs and their actions are explicitly magical. Not even just supernatural, but described in books as magical. Which is a specific term in D&D that can be targetted by things like Detect Magic or Anti-Magic effects. The point was that you don't have to be supernatural yourself to be in control of a Lair. Which I suppose is a bit of a nitpick, but still.

 

[TwoSix]

We know that Divine and Primal draw their magics from the Outer Planes and Inner Planes (which presumably includes the four elements, feywild and shadowfell now) respectively. Warlocks are taught arcane magic from the perspective of extra planar beings, which presumably works either akin to wizard magic or cleric magic, depending on player/DM. Sorcerers are inevitably pulling the magic from inside themselves out. Bardcraft is supposedly Words of Power on crack. Artificers use magic inherent in the tools and raw resources they use.

Every setting does wizard magic slightly differently. Forgotten Realms has the Weave, which is just a mix of all the planar energies freefloating around that Mystra puts in order. Eberron wizards pull energy from the Ring of Siberys. Dragonlance? Wizard magic comes from the Moons- period. Dark Suns (RIP, eaten by a black hole too soon) has wizards stealing life energy to power their magics. Its all taking floating energy in the environment and shaping it. What that energy is differs, however.

Anyways. Power sources are pretty well defined, even if there's some variation based on individual settings.

Yea, that's what I would generally classify as a "weak and floaty" definition, good enough to get started but not actually explaining and codifying the differences. It's perfect for D&D's role as a toolkit for your own D&D-flavored setting.

 

[Mephista]

Yet I don't see anything in there about "martial power". Because outside of 4e, that isn't a thing in D&D.

That's because "martial" isn't a power source in this game. Its a fan-made description, which has been applied to everything that swings a weapon, including half-casters like the paladin, to only the Fighter and Rogue, and even then, the Arcane Trickster, Soulknife, Psi Knight, etc subclasses are excluded.

Personally, I use it as the two ends of the caster-martial spectrum, with Fighter on one end, Wizard on the other, and Warlock floating in the middle. Replace a new spectrum for a Barbarian-Ranger-Druid divide. Etc.

 

[Mephista]

Yea, that's what I would generally classify as a "weak and floaty" definition, good enough to get started but not actually explaining and codifying the differences. It's perfect for D&D's role as a toolkit for your own D&D-flavored setting.

If you call that weak and floaty, I'd hate to see your hard and firm.

 

[TwoSix]

If you call that weak and floaty, I'd hate to see your hard and firm.

Nope, not going there.

 

[James Gasik]

Give me an example of such a thing.

Ok, 20th level Barbarian doesn't just break the Strength cap for humanoids, but flies right past the power of a Frost Giant, with a similar break in Constitution. The explanation is...."you embody the power of the wilds".

 

[James Gasik]

Invent an explanation.

Right now the only classes that don't have an implied supernatural power source is fighter and rogue. Barbarian has primal energy channeled into rage. Monks have ki/spirit. Casters all have different types of magic. Just give fighter and rogue some supernatural backstory and you solve the problem.

Actually if you read the Barbarian class closely, you'll note that "primal power" is just one possible explanation; the class also offers "just being super angry" as an alternative power source.

 

[James Gasik]

Show me in the book. Show me any explanation that came from the game we're all playing.

Note that last paragraph. For some their rage spring from animal spirits. Others gain supernatural power because they are really really mad.

 

[James Gasik]

Actually I can do better than the Barbarian. Let's go with a "pure Martial" (whatever that is). Let's look at some higher level Rogue abilities.

Evasion​

Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as an ancient red dragon’s fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Ok so this is a pretty famous example, as it's never made any sense how a Rogue can, off turn, without moving, standing on an open field, take no damage from a Fireball dropped on his head. Even from it's earliest version in Oriental Adventures back in 1e, this is a power that defies belief, but persists because...it's popular I guess?

Blindsense​

Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.

Again, no explanation, not even a training montage of training in darkness. Though since there is now a fighting style that replicates this, I suppose we can just shrug and carry on.

Slippery Mind​

By 15th level, you have acquired greater mental strength. You gain proficiency in Wisdom saving throws.

So wait, what is it about being a Rogue that gives you "mental strength" again? What kind of training grants this? Well, again, the existence of the Resilient Feat I suppose gives this a pass.

Elusive​

Beginning at 18th level, you are so evasive that attackers rarely gain the upper hand against you. No attack roll has advantage against you while you aren’t incapacitated.

Here's another fun one. So you can be blind and deaf, attacked by an invisible foe, but nope, nobody gets advantage on you. How did you get this fantastic danger sense? Given that this is pretty similar to 3e's Uncanny Dodge, I'm sure it gets a pass in a lot of people's heads, but...

Stroke of Luck​

At 20th level, you have an uncanny knack for succeeding when you need to. If your attack misses a target within range, you can turn the miss into a hit. Alternatively, if you fail an ability check, you can treat the d20 roll as a 20.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

And now the Rogue can simply will themselves to succeed, in strict defiance of reality. If that's not supernatural, I'll eat my PHB!