D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[CreamCloud0]

Edit: and I think folks make mistakes in who they choose as they're fantasy exemplar for the class. Batman fights threats that would not be out of place in a high level D&D campaign. John McLain and Boromir do not.

i mean, i think people are referring to McClain and Boromir as more of a reference as of...style rather than scale, yes both would be pretty quickly outmatched if you replicated their capabilities exactly in game but it's the core idea there that people want, people want to be the cool action movie hero who takes out dozens of heavily armed baddies with their wits, their fists and some awesome stunts, the warrior who weilds sword and shield with such skill, protecting their team standing down a hoard of orcs despite being stuck through a dozen times over managing to still fight on.

 

[Gammadoodler]

i mean, i think people are referring to McClain and Boromir as more of a reference as of...style rather than scale, yes both would be pretty quickly outmatched if you replicated their capabilities exactly in game but it's the core idea there that people want, people want to be the cool action movie hero who takes out dozens of heavily armed baddies with their wits, their fists and some awesome stunts, the warrior who weilds sword and shield with such skill, protecting their team standing down a hoard of orcs despite being stuck through a dozen times over managing to still fight on.

The problem is that style doesn't need to scale, while scale..does.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As long as it's baked into the class/subclass, sure.

I wouldn't love it as the only option to get those kinds of effects, but I'm ultimately more interested in the effects than the origins.

Edit: and I think folks make mistakes in who they choose as their ideal fantasy exemplar for the class. Batman fights threats that would not be out of place in a high level D&D campaign. John McLain and Boromir do not.

High level D&D campaigns bear little resemblance to most of fantasy literature.

 

[Gammadoodler]

High level D&D campaigns bear little resemblance to most of fantasy literature.

They certainly don't resemble Lord of the Rings or Die Hard.

 

[James Gasik]

And with that I only just now realized that there are probably breeders for sorcerers.

Or matchmakers.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Or matchmakers.

This is somewhat less grim..Thank you.

 

[James Gasik]

This is somewhat less grim..Thank you.

My analogy is something like nobility, hopefully without the inbreeding. I mean think about it this way. If every member of a bloodline can have sorcerous powers, then the more members of that bloodline there are, the more magic you have. If we view spellcasters as a valuable commodity in a setting (and why wouldn't we?), the the nation with the most spellcasters has an edge. So I say, raise a few of 'em up in station, and do whatever you can to make then have a bunch of kids.

Yes, I know, at some point the Sorcerers will probably overthrow you, but that's the problem for future generations, lol.

Hm, the more I think about this, the more I wonder if maybe Sorcerers should be the nobility. The authority to rule truly being in the blood.

The question is, what has to happen for Sorcerer powers to awaken? Is there a catalyst? Random chance? One per generation?

Interestingly, something like this actually happened in the Forgotten Realms. One of the noble houses of Myth Drannor (House Dlardrageth) made deals with demons to have half-demon elf brats with greater power, whose descendants are the fey'ri. I mean, fiends not Sorcerers, but still.

 

[Faolyn]

Funny how we prescribe that to D&D but nobody bats an eye when an RPG like Shadowrun, World of Darkness or Warhammer clearly marry their lore to their rules. D&D though has to be all things to all people.

Shadowrun, WoD, and Warhammer all have specific worlds attached to the rules. D&D doesn't, not even when there's an "official setting."

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about it from a fiction point of view. I was talking about it from a mechanics point of view.

The prevailing argument that seems to pop up is "Wizards wouldn't bother making an inferior copy of martial abilities if those martials are in the party." I was simply taking a look at the inverse and pointing out "Martials CANNOT copy wizard abilities, unless they are explicitly given spells and spellcasting"

Any wizard can take spells to copy the rogue's stealth abilities, and can take the skills and tools and even get expertise to copy their skill use. While also still doing wizard things. They are just a less efficient rogue. A Rogue, barring the Arcane Trickster which gets access to wizard spells CANNOT bring the same tools to the table that a wizard can. There is a disparity there. So, we need to consider how to address that disparity.

What I am saying is Martial can copy many of the wizard abilities. Many magic abilities are "mundane" abilities overcharged and sped up. The martial version would be the slower weaker but repeatable fireballs, charms, healing, and transformations.

They just don't see play as these are shifted to be variant rules, setting relies, and optional rules. If created at all.

The same with sorcerers.

Sorcerer should have a "Make a spell" chart to suss out the Weave an make a ln emergency spell of their necessity at a higher cost. But this is never made core and only seen in homebrew and 3PP due to bias. Not due to it not making sense.

 

[Minigiant]

There's literally one in the PHB. The eldritch knight is a fighter with fighter resources who goes into wizardry. He doesn't get all of wizardry, but the Bladesinger doesn't get all of fighter, either.

The Eldritch knight does Wizard magic with Wizard spells.

I am longing for a Fighter who does Wizard things with Fighter resources

The separation is artificial. It's like explosives being like mundane fireball but using a DM's gunpowder ban to say Fighter cannot blow things up.