D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[James Gasik]

Action Surge only grants 1 action, but that action can be anything, including an entire attack sequence. You aren't even tired afterwards! Now compare Haste, which limits what you can do and if you were under it's effects for a zeptosecond and concentration on it is ended, you suffer from lethargy.

Heck, until the new books change it, it even allows you to cast two leveled spells in a turn, something not even a Sorcerer can do with metamagic!

But very few people want to even consider that it's not a mundane ability.

Second Wind can be used every hour to give you back hit points, eventually more than a hit die's worth. Other than resting and spending hit dice, it's one of the only sources of non-magical healing in the game outside of regeneration (which in itself I wouldn't call "non-magical").

I mean think about it, a first level Fighter reduced to 1 hit point with no healing surges can restore 104 hit points (take that, heal!) and still sleep for 8 hours in a day! The Banneret can even heal their allies with this ability.

But very few people want to even consider that it's not a mundane ability.

And the Fighter is doing these things at 2nd level!

I get that some people want the fantasy (heh) of a "non-magical warrior who fights dragons, giants, and gods with pure skill" but I mean, to do that, you have to willfully ignore two of the three primary abilities of the class!

 

[James Gasik]

Eh, doesn't need to be often.

One Dragon has one half dragon kid.
That guy has two quarter dragon kids.
Those two kids have a total of 5 eighth dragon kids
Those kids have a total of 12 kids
Those kids have a total of...

Even if it is only a few dragons every hundred years, you are going to see a pretty sizable population of dragon-blooded individuals. Heck, you just need one dragon who likes the idea of a harem as a testament to his wealth and glory. Remember, the mere human with the mere human lifespan of Ghengis Khan is the current descendant of 16 MILLION people after only a thousand or so years. A dragon would have hundreds of years to have kids, where he had less than 50 as a mature adult.

And consider how many dragons have to exist to justify all the subspecies, and remember that's just one singular explanation for a sorcerous bloodline...and if you get magic powers, why wouldn't you try to keep that bloodline relatively pure?

 

[Chaosmancer]

And that’s how you get Krillan.

One of the most amusing things about Krillian and Yamcha? Even Tien actually.

All three are the "weak" merely human characters.

The Sayain Arc ends with powerful moments for each of them. In fact, it was Krillin who was set up to deal the final the blow. The Frieza arc where we first have our truly galatic scale conflict, Krillin's technique the Destructo Disc is so deadly and shocking to his opponents that the only reason he didn't kill two of the major antagonists is that they were faster than him. Frieza ends up copying the move after seeing it, it is that good.

The ability to remote control attacks frieza uses? Before that I believe Yamcha is the only one to demonstrate that ability. It was his signature.

Tien's Solar Flare is one of the reasons Goku even wins against Frieza, a technique that only the original Z Fighters ever learn.

So, for all their lesser physical capabilities... they tend to develop some of the most key and powerful techniques. It is kind of interesting to think about.

 

[Gammadoodler]

And consider how many dragons have to exist to justify all the subspecies, and remember that's just one singular explanation for a sorcerous bloodline...and if you get magic powers, why wouldn't you try to keep that bloodline relatively pure?

And with that I only just now realized that there are probably breeders for sorcerers.

 

[FrogReaver]

The fighter write up doesn't mention magic at all.

The Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, Rune Knight, Psi Warrior, and Echo Knight are unarguably magical. You cannot argue they are not magical.

I’m with you so far.

How is this possible? How can this subclasses exist, in the non-magical, always mundane fighter?

Subclasses can draw power from places other than the ‘class’…

Well, you are going to tell me it is because those subclasses tell us that those subclass abilities exist. Therefore they exist.

While true in some sense this isn’t the kind of answer I would give.

Okay. Nothing in the Fighter description says anything about Second Wind, Action Surge, or Indomitable. How is it possible these things exist? The game states they have these abilities and therefore they have them right?

Action Surge fluff says - Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment.

This is part of the fighter holistic description.

Thus your premise that the fighter description says nothing about Action Surge is incorrect.

Okay, so we want to add new abilities to the fighter, that would allow them to reach beyond their current limits. But, the argument is there is no justification for those abilities.

No. For particular abilities. Not for any given ability.

Nothing in the fighter says they have these abilities.... just like nothing outside of action surge says action surge is possible and nothing outside of the Echo Knight says that making a shadow clone of yourself is possible.

The Fighter description says all of those things. The fighter description doesn’t end when the class abilities start to be detailed, they are part of the description.

People are using the class description as it exists to pre-justify not adding new abilities, which will be justified by their own existence JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

Particular kinds of new abilities, yes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

To which I say, phooey. If they want to retcon stuff, they can, but until I see it, I say it's official. If the Forgotten Realms isn't the same place I've been playing in for the past 30 ish years then what's my investment in the setting?

I think it depends on the case.

I've seen people argue that Paladins and Clerics must, absolutely, have the backing of a god, because despite the 5e books saying they do not need such backing, the 2e books said that to use magic higher than level 2 spells requires backing from a god.

In this case, something was changed, and people are referencing older material to drag that change back, and prevent the game from evolving.

But if someone wants to recite the entire history of the Moonshae Isles from 1st to 5th edition... go for it. I don't think we necessarily need to delete things that do not contradict.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So fighters and rogues are not supposed to be supernatural then? Cool.

Wizardry is skill
Monk Martial Arts are a skill.

Why would simply being a honed skill mean that Fighters and Rogues are not supposed to be supernatural? There is nothing that states that skills cannot be honed to a supernatural edge.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I’m with you so far.

Subclasses can draw power from places other than the ‘class’…

While true in some sense this isn’t the kind of answer I would give.

It was essentially the same answer. You are stating that the subclass states a power source, which was previously unavailable, until the subclass stated that power source.

Action Surge fluff says - Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment.

This is part of the fighter holistic description.

Thus your premise that the fighter description says nothing about Action Surge is incorrect.

No. For particular abilities. Not for any given ability.

The Fighter description says all of those things. The fighter description doesn’t end when the class abilities start to be detailed, they are part of the description.

Okay. If the Fighter Description includes the class abilities, then if we add an ability that states "At level 11, your body is like steel and mundane obstacles no longer stand in your way, deal double damage to all objects and terrain" Then it is part of the fighter description that they have bodies like steel.

However, currently, we are being told that we CANNOT give the fighter this ability, because we need to justify it based on the fighter description.

It is a circular argument, all abilities of the fighter are justified in their existence by being abilities of the fighter, so if we add new abilities, we are adding that new justification. We should not be prevented from adding new abilities because the description of these new abilities does not yet exist.

What justification in the fighter description exists for tripling their jump distance? The fact that we give them an ability that triples their jump distance. If we don't need to justify current abilities, why are we demanded to justify new abilities?

 

[FrogReaver]

It was essentially the same answer. You are stating that the subclass states a power source, which was previously unavailable, until the subclass stated that power source.

I don’t think your subclass argument here is convincing.

Okay. If the Fighter Description includes the class abilities, then if we add an ability that states "At level 11, your body is like steel and mundane obstacles no longer stand in your way, deal double damage to all objects and terrain" Then it is part of the fighter description that they have bodies like steel.

However, currently, we are being told that we CANNOT give the fighter this ability, because we need to justify it based on the fighter description.

It is a circular argument, all abilities of the fighter are justified in their existence by being abilities of the fighter, so if we add new abilities, we are adding that new justification. We should not be prevented from adding new abilities because the description of these new abilities does not yet exist.

What justification in the fighter description exists for tripling their jump distance? The fact that we give them an ability that triples their jump distance. If we don't need to justify current abilities, why are we demanded to justify new abilities?

We demand both current and future abilities not contradict the fluff of what a fighter is/is not.

That’s a lot of leeway. But it doesn’t mean literally anything goes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay. It is still an explanation, and you are still playing Level Up, so you don't really have a reason to care anyways. So why keep demanding "stronger" explanations?

Because I played D&D for 35 years, am still emotionally invested in it, and quite frankly IMO they used to be better than this.