Only one thing bugs me about Monks...

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you aren't concerned about balance, then there's no such thing as "power creep".

-- N

Actually, that can of worms was opened when people started mentioning ToB which has nothing to do with monks casting divine spells.

As for the rest, it does not follow: I see power creep in the release of the ToB classes because they are simply more powerful classes- they do nothing to address the need some feel to improve the other martial classes. They are replacements, not fixes.

No, no they didn't.
They modified Wildshape not Polymorph (making wild shape alternate form).

They introduced new polymorph spells, but they never changed polymorph. The rules say the new poly spell rules do not affect the old poly ones.

Fair enough- if I messed up that detail, it just shows you how little I care about the power of spellcasters. All I saw was a couple of announcements like this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a

...which I didn't read all that closely since I don't use polymorph spells, and have personally always restricted my Druids (as a player) to natural or nearly-natural creatures, and my arcanists haven't chosen a polymorph spell above 3rd except some form of polymorph other.

But the point remains: with language like "It’s too darn good." in that announcement, they admitted they had a problem, and took some measures to correct them- maybe not all the ones they needed to- but some.

 

[Nifft]

Actually, that can of worms was opened when people started mentioning ToB which has nothing to do with monks casting divine spells.

If you ignore that Crusaders explicitly use a mix of divine & martial flavor, and that the Swordsage is explicitly meant to be a fixed Monk with powers that can come from a variety of sources (including divine), then you might have a point.

If you didn't ask "... has anyone ever ventured down the path of boosting the mystical, divine side of monks?", then you might have a point.

But you did, and the Swordsage is a perfect answer to both.

They are replacements, not fixes.

They are both. They replace bad classes with good classes, allowing you to make the same character concepts you would have made with the originals, except without the painful sucking sensation.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Across all editions, in a campaign reality in which most devout worshipers can cast some divine spells- in post-3Ed, even devotion to a philosophy is sufficient for most divine casting classes- Monks don't have spells. Sure, they have some interesting powers, to be sure, but no spells.

Heck with their perceived lack of combat prowess*- something that never bothered me- I've always felt that D&D monks should have at least been half-casters like rangers, paladins and sohei. Furthermore, the similar OA Shaman is not only a full caster with domains, they can eventually get 3 domains. Wyatt's OA 3.5 update in Dragon #317 gave shamen scaling unarmed attack like the monk, and soheis' Ki Frenzy melded FoB with Rage effects, and nothing was stripped from either class for balance.

If you ignore that Crusaders explicitly use a mix of divine & martial flavor, and that the Swordsage is explicitly meant to be a fixed Monk with powers that can come from a variety of sources (including divine), then you might have a point.

If you didn't ask "... has anyone ever ventured down the path of boosting the mystical, divine side of monks?", then you might have a point.

If you didn't ignore the fact that the original post (quoted above)- ESPECIALLY the fairly explicit second paragraph- was asking all of this in the context of Monks being the only class linked to the divine in some way that don't have the ability to cast divine spells, you might have a point.

Since you did ignore that, you don't.

Other posters have managed to grasp this context and been helpful with suggestions about the expanding the Sacred Fist PrCl into a base class and so forth.

Can you do so now? Can we move on?

They are both. They replace bad classes with good classes, allowing you to make the same character concepts you would have made with the originals, except without the painful sucking sensation.

Fixes adress correcting or replacing extant mechanics. ToB does not in any way revise the PHB rules, it introduces new rules on top of them, and new classes to use those new rules. The underlying mechanics are still unaltered, meaning those classes are not fixes, just replacements.

And I'm not looking for replacements for fighters, or new mechanics grafted onto old. If you're going to fix something, fix it, don't put a patch on it.

 

[jasin]

Actually, that can of worms was opened when people started mentioning ToB which has nothing to do with monks casting divine spells.

It has quite a lot to do with monks casting divine spells, since one of the classes is very monk-like, and has abilities that are very spell-like, so it's a very good model for monks casting divine spells.

As for the rest, it does not follow: I see power creep in the release of the ToB classes because they are simply more powerful classes- they do nothing to address the need some feel to improve the other martial classes.

That's not quite accurate. A fighter with Tome of Battle is (a bit) more powerful and (a lot) more interesting than a fighter without Tome of Battle, since he can take those feats (the names elude me) that let non-ToB classes take ToB maneuvers and stances.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It has quite a lot to do with monks casting divine spells, since one of the classes is very monk-like, and has abilities that are very spell-like, so it's a very good model for monks casting divine spells.

Given that I had already posted examples of monk-like classes- the Sohei and Shaman from OA- that had divine casting, the ToB classes are considerably farther away from that basis than the rest of the discussion.

That's not quite accurate. A fighter with Tome of Battle is (a bit) more powerful and (a lot) more interesting than a fighter without Tome of Battle, since he can take those feats (the names elude me) that let non-ToB classes take ToB maneuvers and stances.

A fair answer. And its not as if I'm unaware of those feats- some ToB feats appear in my Monk database.

I'll still assert, though, that the answer is not new mechanics like stances, but fixing the original, underlying stuff. The Fighter may have feats to burn, but what of the other martial classes?







So, any more ideas about divine spellcasting & monks?

 

[jasin]

So, any more ideas about divine spellcasting & monks?

Well, what is it about a monk that makes them a monk? What is the core monk ability that you wouldn't want to give up for spells?

Give that to the cleric, and you have a divine spellcasting monk.

Especially this late in 3.5 lifetime, the majority of what you'd want a monk to do can probably be done with some cleric spell or another. Running on water, or air? Done. Readjusting the flow of someone's qi to cure them of disease or poison? Done. Meditative insight? Done. Deadly battle trance? Done. Lighting your fists on fire? Done.

A sorcerer-like cleric variant (like the Dragonlance mystic) might be more appropriate, but it's a matter of taste. I think it is: learning a couple of secret techniques and mastering them fits my idea of the monk more than picking and choosing daily from a huge list.

If I wanted to make a spellcasting monk, that's the route I'd take: take a spellcaster and touch him up to make him satisfyingly monk-like, rather than the other way around.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not too familiar with the Dragonlance Mystic; care to enlighten?

In a sense, the (updated) OA Shaman and the Monk are the extremes of the spectrum I'm looking at. The picture is somewhat complicated by the updated Sohei.

The monk, we all know. The shaman has full casting with domains, a scaling unarmed strike that lacks the dual manufactured/natural status of the monk's, no FoB, and some armor. The sohei melds FoB and Rage with some armor & weapons and half-casting...somewhat like a Paladin in overall structure.

I guess I'd want:

1. light type armor only- not modifiable by changing armor's material (see Mithril)
2. some power over Spirits and an animist theme
3. full or half-casting (possibly with associated domains & powers)
4. ideally, a more varied weapons list to reflect a broader spectrum of the world's martial arts (I've posted about this elsewhere)

I'm fine with the medium BAB & d8HP, and I'm not particularly averse to spells on their list replacing current class abilities.

I guess...I guess I'm looking for a Monk/Shaman fusion, because I don't think the Sohei needs to be replaced at all.

 

[akbearfoot]

I'll add my 2 coppers worth that the ToB is a great addition to 3.5e. A much needed fix to the 'power gap'

As far as power creep is concerned....the tiers of abilities more or less go like this. Spells are greater than or equal to psionics, and both of those are greater than almost all of the martial maneuvers.


That being said, I always thought the Sacred Fist PrC was borderline too powerful. But I've never actually seen one played, so it might be just like monks which look awesome on paper but are sucktastic in play.

Full BaB, all good saves, full spellcasting, good class abilities.

A monk with close to full BaB + righteous might and divine power sounds pretty scary when they roll that fistfull of flurry dice, adding strength AND wisdom to damage rolls.

 

[Nifft]

If you didn't ignore the fact that the original post (quoted above)- ESPECIALLY the fairly explicit second paragraph- was asking all of this in the context of Monks being the only class linked to the divine in some way that don't have the ability to cast divine spells, you might have a point.

Monks are not "the only class linked to the divine in some way that don't have the ability to cast divine spells". There's an obvious counterexample in the ToB that has already been brought up.

Since you did ignore that, you don't.

Other posters have managed to grasp this context and been helpful with suggestions about the expanding the Sacred Fist PrCl into a base class and so forth.

Can you do so now? Can we move on?

God damn, you are one rude fellow.

You've succeeded in getting me to stop trying to help.

Ciao, -- N

 

[jasin]

I'm not too familiar with the Dragonlance Mystic; care to enlighten?

It's to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard.

Cleric BAB, saves, HD, and spell list, but the sorcerer's spells known/spell per day table. They get only one domain, and the domain spells as bonus spells known.

Drop armor and give them the monk's AC bonus, and free Improved Unarmed Strike (upgradable but perhaps not automatically scaling) and I think you've got a pretty decent meditative divinely magical martial artist (depending significantly on spells chosen).

Actually, now I recall I've posted something relevant here years ago...