Only one thing bugs me about Monks...

I was wondering about monks as divine casters; opining the disconnect between devotees of philosophies getting spells and the fact that Monks are the sole religious/devout themed base class in the game without divine spells.

How about replacing the monk with the OA Shaman and creating as variant called Monk.
a. 1st level: replace animal companion with another ability (or moving turn undead to level 1)
b. 2nd level: replace spirit sight with something else
c. 5th level: rename spirit's favor to divine favor
d. replace spells that you feel are in appropriate
 

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It's to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard.

Cleric BAB, saves, HD, and spell list, but the sorcerer's spells known/spell per day table. They get only one domain, and the domain spells as bonus spells known.

Drop armor and give them the monk's AC bonus, and free Improved Unarmed Strike (upgradable but perhaps not automatically scaling) and I think you've got a pretty decent meditative divinely magical martial artist (depending significantly on spells chosen).

Actually, now I recall I've posted something relevant here years ago... :)

Not bad, almost like a Favored Soul as a starting point in some ways.

How about replacing the monk with the OA Shaman and creating as variant called Monk.
a. 1st level: replace animal companion with another ability (or moving turn undead to level 1)
b. 2nd level: replace spirit sight with something else
c. 5th level: rename spirit's favor to divine favor
d. replace spells that you feel are in appropriate

I think you mean spirit companion, right? While flavorful, this could easily be dropped in favor of the revised class' spell progression and monk abilities.

Rebuking/turning of spirits should be kept, but probably at a Paladin's pace.
 

One thing that really bugs me about monk is the fact that they are the least creative class, in terms of variety.

If you ask me to create a dozen fighters that are all completely different in outlook and combat style, it's easy.
It's easy with any other class too.

However with monks you end up flurrying with bare fists when you raise enough levels. You can do very few tricks and being a sort of skill money helps too, but generally it's hard to customize monks. They did a HUGE step in 3.5 when they gave options to choose from, such as choosing between stunning fist or improved grapple, but that's NOT ENOUGH, not by a long shot! Come on... ARGH! Wizard can choose between number of spells, fighter has huge number of fighter feats, but monk is extremely frustating to flavor in different ways without having a number of splatbooks...

If I had created the monk, I would've given them Ki pool like ninja and ability to select between different abilities. This way you could've gone for a stealth monk, mystical sage or brute force no-nonsense a$$kicker. Now you end up with clone wars - in the long run.
 

One thing that really bugs me about monk is the fact that they are the least creative class, in terms of variety.

If you ask me to create a dozen fighters that are all completely different in outlook and combat style, it's easy.
It's easy with any other class too.

However with monks you end up flurrying with bare fists when you raise enough levels. You can do very few tricks and being a sort of skill money helps too, but generally it's hard to customize monks. They did a HUGE step in 3.5 when they gave options to choose from, such as choosing between stunning fist or improved grapple, but that's NOT ENOUGH, not by a long shot! Come on... ARGH! Wizard can choose between number of spells, fighter has huge number of fighter feats, but monk is extremely frustating to flavor in different ways without having a number of splatbooks...

If I had created the monk, I would've given them Ki pool like ninja and ability to select between different abilities. This way you could've gone for a stealth monk, mystical sage or brute force no-nonsense a$. Now you end up with clone wars - in the long run.

With all the stuff for 3.X, each class has gotten a little more flexibility...and I think you're right: monks are probably in the bottom 10 classes for flex.

The builds I can think of are:

  1. Str-based unarmed striker
  2. Str-based unarmed grappler
  3. Str-based unarmed stunner
  4. Dex-based weapon striker
  5. Dex-based weapon tripper
  6. Dex based stunner

There are probably a few variations beyond that, and each of those builds has some variation within them, but those are the ones I've seen the most.

The only classes I can think of that might get less are the Soulknife, the ToM casters and the MoI classes.

Speaking of MoI, inspired by that book and the Ki mechanic, I actually did a MoI version of the Monk (and some other classes)...I need to finish that project.
 
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One thing that really bugs me about monk is the fact that they are the least creative class, in terms of variety.

If you ask me to create a dozen fighters that are all completely different in outlook and combat style, it's easy.
It's easy with any other class too.

However with monks you end up flurrying with bare fists when you raise enough levels. You can do very few tricks and being a sort of skill money helps too, but generally it's hard to customize monks. They did a HUGE step in 3.5 when they gave options to choose from, such as choosing between stunning fist or improved grapple, but that's NOT ENOUGH, not by a long shot! Come on... ARGH! Wizard can choose between number of spells, fighter has huge number of fighter feats, but monk is extremely frustating to flavor in different ways without having a number of splatbooks...

If I had created the monk, I would've given them Ki pool like ninja and ability to select between different abilities. This way you could've gone for a stealth monk, mystical sage or brute force no-nonsense a$. Now you end up with clone wars - in the long run.
Unearth Arcana has ~6 additional build packages for monks, these have alternate bonus feats for you to play around with.

Otherwise there are very few additional bonus feats for monks in Complete Arcana, Complete Warrior and PBHII. These were written add to the bonus feat list.
 


Dannyalcatraz, I admit to being somewhat confused by this thread. I'd like to ask some questions, if I may:

1) Are you looking for a systemic 'divine' fix for the monk, or just something which can apply to a particular character or characters in your game?

2) How much of a consideration is balance?

3) Are newer subsystems on the table, or not? You cite your dislike of ToB, but go on to suggest a possible incarnum-route. In post #6 you are "reiterating your dislike of ToB" but you haven't previously iterated it in this thread.

4) Are you averse to reskinning other mechanics (psi, invocations, incarnum whatever) with a 'divine' feel, or are you specifically looking for a conventional divine spellcasting progression?

5) Later in the thread, you express dissatisfaction with the monk's lack of flexibility. Are you looking for a class which can encompass a specialization in one or more of several areas (stealth, mystical prowess, unarmed combat etc.)?
 

1) Are you looking for a systemic 'divine' fix for the monk, or just something which can apply to a particular character or characters in your game?
Systemic- I'd love for the monk to share that predominant feature of divine spellcasting with the other divine base classes.

2) How much of a consideration is balance?

I'm not enslaved to the concept of balance, but neither am I unrealistically unaware that it plays a role- otherwise, I'd simply add the cleric's spell chart to the monk.

So I'm 100% with the idea that adding spells- possibly even as a half-caster- would require removing other class features. And since anothe poste pointed out, there are spells that mimic many of those features, this probably wouldn't have much of an effect on legacy playstyle.

Or to put it differently, I'm not so much interested in boosting the class' power so much as I am unifying it's design with the other PHB and the majority of other WotC divine-themed base classes.

3) Are newer subsystems on the table, or not? You cite your dislike of ToB, but go on to suggest a possible incarnum-route. In post #6 you are "reiterating your dislike of ToB" but you haven't previously iterated it in this thread.
I really want to stay within the game's base mechanics.

That initial response about the ToB to Nifft's was- admittedly- terse, but I've been in dozens of discussions with Nifft (and others) about my dislike of that book, and thought he might remember. An unfair assumption.

(My other responses, however, merely echo his tone.)

As for MoI, my musings shouldn't have been posted here due to the confusion it was likely to cause. To clarify, shortly after that book came out, I was doing MoI versions of MANY base classes, including Sohei, Samurai, Ninjas, Rangers, and so forth, to what end, I cannot now say.

4) Are you averse to reskinning other mechanics (psi, invocations, incarnum whatever) with a 'divine' feel, or are you specifically looking for a conventional divine spellcasting progression?

Again, divine spellcasting, please.

5) Later in the thread, you express dissatisfaction with the monk's lack of flexibility. Are you looking for a class which can encompass a specialization in one or more of several areas (stealth, mystical prowess, unarmed combat etc.)?
That was a different poster- my link about monk weapons notwithstanding, I was just commenting on the number of builds I've personally seen in play and on the web, expanding upon his shorter list.

While I like my revised weapon list, there are a lot of different ways the monk weapon list can be expanded in 3.X (see link in my sig). What my list does is improve the base class' ability to model RW martial arts styles without forcing the player to burn a feat or use a semi-obscure variant.

IOW, its a minor tweak.

Adding divine spellcasting, OTOH, is a major design change that, IMHO, would serve to unify the class with other divine-themed classes.
 
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So I'm 100% with the idea that adding spells- possibly even as a half-caster- would require removing other class features. And since anothe poste pointed out, there are spells that mimic many of those features, this probably wouldn't have much of an effect on legacy playstyle.
Most of the monk's class features are weak enough that you don't really have to remove anything, but I'd advise getting rid of the stupid ones like Tongue of Sun and Moon, Slow Fall, and Spell Resistance.

Maybe Quivering Palm too, on the grounds that as written it's somewhat useless. An increase in the amount of times/day you can use it at least.
 

Most of the monk's class features are weak enough that you don't really have to remove anything, but I'd advise getting rid of the stupid ones like Tongue of Sun and Moon, Slow Fall, and Spell Resistance.

Especially since all of those can basically be replaced by some kind of spell.

Maybe Quivering Palm too, on the grounds that as written it's somewhat useless. An increase in the amount of times/day you can use it at least.
It may be the most complex save or die effect in the game...and given the availability if such effects to other classes, it's frequency does gimp it.

This could be addressed either by just giving the Monk a thematically appropriate spell on their list or by an edit something like...

QP: usable 1 + Con bonus times/day; only one QP may be active at any one time.
 

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