D&D 5E Only three pillars?

[jmartkdr2]

There's a Zipperon Disney video where he's talking about the exploration pillar, but before he gets to that he discusses the idea of pillars of play in general. He notes, very correctly, that pillars are not a theory of game design, just a way of framing the design goals of DnD 5e. So you can pick whatever you want to be the pillars of the game.

Which would mean that downtime not being a pillar doesn't say anything about downtime, it just tells us that the initial design of 5e didn't consider downtime as important as combat, exploration, or social interaction.

He did throw out an alternate pillar structure of two: Dungeons and Dragons.

Dungeons are the interesting locations where adventures happen, dragons are the interesting beings you face in dungeons. Downtime happens in not-dungeons. It's not unimportant, but at least for DnD I expect downtime to be about dungeons: recovering from or preparing for the next one. Dragons doesn't include all monsters (a bunch of skeletons is a type of hazard) but does imply that they're not just there for combat. Dragons (whether winged dinosaurs or beholders or necromancers or goblin chieftains) can be reasoned with, lied to, stolen from, or snuck past as well as fought, and the dm should be prepared to handle all of that from a standard writeup.

I like this pillar system a lot, myself.

 

[The Glen]

Character development and world building. Use your players backgrounds for more adventures. Change the world from their accomplishments. It rewards the players for playing more than any magic item could.

 

[Tonguez]

Mass combat doesn't need to include the PCs in any capacity for it to be worth doing at the table. Sometimes the GM doesn't want to arbitrarily determine the outcome of a conflict that has broken out, whether or not the PCs are participants or not. So the group has a WAR! session and plays to find out what happens.

but you’ve just gone and introduced WAR! as a mass combat minigame where the Players are involved as characters known as ‘The Royal Fusilliers’ instead of Baret the Fighter.

scope zooming from individual character to troop or faction is an artifact of play not a pillar and its still either Players determining outcome ‘in play’ or DM rolling some dice solo (if not fiat).

Afterall all those pillars are suppose to carry the Story being created between Players and DM,

 

[Charlaquin]

So what is the distinction you're trying to make? Because what you've presented so far just leads right back to there's only one mode of play by your own definition. What makes the subsystems distinct enough in your mind to make them unique and separate?

I mean, it’s in the name, “mode of play.” The types of decisions being made and actions being taken as a player are different, because the systems governing those modes of play function differently.

 

[Charlaquin]

Fair enough, but then under what other mode does negotiating with the Baron or other important diplomacy fall? It's not combat, it's not exploration, it's not downtime, it's not investigation...so what is it?

Theoretically that could happen in any mode of play. It’s not especially likely to happen during combat, but I could see it -the Barbarian chieftain demands you prove yourselves worthy of his aid in battle, for example. Or, of course, in a game that uses some sort of “social combat” system. I’m not a big fan of such systems, but they’re basically an attempt to run social interactions using the mechanical framework and tools of the combat mode of play.

Far more likely would be for it to happen during downtime - which is notably poorly named in my opinion, since it’s not like the characters aren’t active during that mode of play. It might be better named “town mode” or “domestic mode” or something. Point is, it’s the mode of play used to execute actions over periods of time, usually in relatively safe locations like towns. That’s when I would typically expect players to attempt diplomatic negotiations with powerful figures. However, in another DM’s game I could just as easily imagine such activity as part of exploration mode - especially DMs who like to run city adventures. That’s basically what a “city adventure” really is - running the exploration mode of play in urban environments rather than dungeons.

Travel is probably the least likely mode of play for this type of interaction to occur in. I could probably come up with a case, but it would be even more contrived than the “prove your worth in combat” case.

 

[Charlaquin]

Mass Combat is an extension of Combat where Players just happen to be weilding ‘troops‘ as weapons instead of swords and spells.

That’s probably true of what 5e tries to pass as “mass combat rules,” but IMO that’s a big part of why those rules are so dissatisfying. Just because warfare is narratively similar to skirmish combat doesn’t mean that they should be abstracted with the same rule systems. IMO, mass combat is probably best handled with its own system entirely, which is a strong argument for it being best realized as a fifth mode of play. But, if one was to incorporate mass combat into one of the four modes represented in D&D 5e, I think downtime would be a better fit than combat.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That’s probably true of what 5e tries to pass as “mass combat rules,” but IMO that’s a big part of why those rules are so dissatisfying. Just because warfare is narratively similar to skirmish combat doesn’t mean that they should be abstracted with the same rule systems. IMO, mass combat is probably best handled with its own system entirely, which is a strong argument for it being best realized as a fifth mode of play. But, if one was to incorporate mass combat into one of the four modes represented in D&D 5e, I think downtime would be a better fit than combat.

Yeah, I have never played mass combat in D&D (which admittedly has been an infrequent issue) where I haven't felt it would have been better to model it with an actual wargame, like the new Dragonlance book did.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah, I have never played mass combat in D&D (which admittedly been an infrequent issue) where I haven't felt it would have been better to model it with an actual wargame, like the new Dragonlance book did.

Exactly!

 

[overgeeked]

I mean, it’s in the name, “mode of play.” The types of decisions being made and actions being taken as a player are different, because the systems governing those modes of play function differently.

Right, but that bolded piece does not necessarily follow. That’s one of my points. You make different decisions and different actions are being taken because the fiction is different, regardless of the mechanical sameness or difference. The other point is that’s an arbitrary line to draw. Mechanically, you’re always acting on the game through the referee, regardless of the fiction or subsystem differences.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd probably use timeframes to delineate between different modes/pillars of play.

Combat - action declarations cover the next few seconds, action declarations and resolution happen in a pre-determined order and all participants take equivalent turns.

Active exploration - generally action declarations cover next few seconds to few minutes, depending on the hazards involved. The order of resolution of individual actions is generally more freeform, and often not all participants consume equivalent actions. Exact dialog between PCs and NPCs would fall in here.

Passive exploration/travel - Action declarations usually cover several hours, and are generally done by the entire group, with some participants taking "roles" (scout, rearguard, etc.) Explicit actions generally folded into the overall time frame. ("I cast some healing spells while we walk.") Discovering hazards moves back into one of the two previous modes. Longer-length social dynamics, which don't require exact dialogue, happens here. ("I haggle with the merchant for 10 minutes over the price of the armor." "I ask various bar patrons about what they saw for the next half hour.")

Downtime - Action declarations in the days to weeks time frame, primarily used to reframe the next section of the narrative. Crafting, healing, and domain management can all occur here if desired.