Oh yeah, Isida, I didn't realize spell casters were allowed to use the spell point option from UA. That really takes the one advantage I have as a Psion and removes it from my domain, the ability to be able to burn my points on fewer higher level powers rather than having them systematically spread out amongst specific leveled spell slots. Comparisons between a psion and a wizard with the spell point system shows even the wizard coming out on top. The sorcerer is even farther on top.
OOC - [Epic] Scions of the Endless Falls - Full
- Thread starter Isida Kep'Tukari
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Again, this is NOT a competetion between players.
Quit designing your character to go against the rest of the PCs, ultimately it is futile. If Isida wants someone to see through your hide, she will. That someone built their character to be able to see someone who is hiding as well as you should be a good thing.
There are weaknesses with everything and you can exploit them if you use your head. Being good at stealth is good, being completely undetectable is bad.
Quit designing your character to go against the rest of the PCs, ultimately it is futile. If Isida wants someone to see through your hide, she will. That someone built their character to be able to see someone who is hiding as well as you should be a good thing.
There are weaknesses with everything and you can exploit them if you use your head. Being good at stealth is good, being completely undetectable is bad.
Kelleris
Explorer
EDIT: Gah. I'm a naughty boy. I was hoping everyone would leave it to you after I said I would, but then they got me started again... No self-control... Anyway, the main thing is that I wanted to correct Wrahn's assumption that I'm somehow trying to "beat" the other players. Feel free to not read the following if the annoyance isn't worth my additional arguments.
I'm not "playing against you," I'm realizing that blindwhatever is (should be) much more ubiquitous than I thought, just like armor of heavy fortification is unrealistically common due to the exigencies of epic play. As I've said before, I've never even made a character to play this high, much less done it before. I really and honestly don't know what they look like, or what the tricks they use are. I'm just trying to pick these things up quickly, before we get too far along, and I assume that NPCs are going to be at least as smart as we are (a reasonable assumption, I think). It will be much less of a pain for everyone involved if I do it now, among friends, than if I try something in a dangerous situation and have it fail catastrophically. You are my models. If I honestly expected your abilities to have nothing whatever to do with the abilities of our adversaries, it would be a different case. That seems like a poor assumption to me, but I suppose I could be wrong. Is that what you're telling me to expect?
Right. And I think that being unable to get around a 3rd-level spell effect with a fourth-level spell, a second-level spell, 64 ranks in the appropriate skills, a boosting item, a high score in the requisite ability, additional ranks from a feat, the advantages of surprise and preparedness, extensive knowledge of the sneakee, access to the two most stealth/deception-oriented spell lists in the game, and the proposed addition of another 3rd-level spell makes me bad at stealth. Particularly when having a 3rd-level spell effect around constantly is such a trivial matter at this level. If he had spent something akin to the amount of effort that I've spent on it, then yes, it would be wrong for me to be able to sneak around him effortlessly. As it is, that should be the normal state of affairs, just like losing to Rahveon in melee should be the normal state of affairs (and is), and losing to Pilmer in spellcasting should be the normal state of affairs (and is). Stealth is a major part of what I do. It should be darn-near infallible against people that throw a cheap item at the problem and call it a day.
Really? Care to name that reason? As I read it, being completely detection-proof by someone is a Will save, and being undetectable by a given faculty that any number of creatures could possess is not, as seen in invisibility (sight), pass without trace (scent and tracking), mind blank (any divination you care to name), undetectable alignment (alignment detection), and Nystul's magic aura (aura detection). All of these are analogous to what I have in mind; none allow saves (except against a target unwilling to be protected, of course).
As you can see, I'm basically tricked out for this sort of thing, spell-wise; I have all of the above spells save mind blank (and I have some other spells that cover that function almost as well). Given the obvious track my "magical researches" (or what have you) have taken, it seems quite odd to have this gaping hole in my magical bag of tricks. Surely you would acknowledge that blindsight and its cousins are at least as common and worth worrying about as alignment detection?
Ferrix - I'll change it back to slots if you would like. I prefer this way for ease of use, but I wouldn't want to infringe on your perceived advantages in the party, especially when you've gone out of your way to extend me the same courtesy.
I'm not "playing against you," I'm realizing that blindwhatever is (should be) much more ubiquitous than I thought, just like armor of heavy fortification is unrealistically common due to the exigencies of epic play. As I've said before, I've never even made a character to play this high, much less done it before. I really and honestly don't know what they look like, or what the tricks they use are. I'm just trying to pick these things up quickly, before we get too far along, and I assume that NPCs are going to be at least as smart as we are (a reasonable assumption, I think). It will be much less of a pain for everyone involved if I do it now, among friends, than if I try something in a dangerous situation and have it fail catastrophically. You are my models. If I honestly expected your abilities to have nothing whatever to do with the abilities of our adversaries, it would be a different case. That seems like a poor assumption to me, but I suppose I could be wrong. Is that what you're telling me to expect?
Right. And I think that being unable to get around a 3rd-level spell effect with a fourth-level spell, a second-level spell, 64 ranks in the appropriate skills, a boosting item, a high score in the requisite ability, additional ranks from a feat, the advantages of surprise and preparedness, extensive knowledge of the sneakee, access to the two most stealth/deception-oriented spell lists in the game, and the proposed addition of another 3rd-level spell makes me bad at stealth. Particularly when having a 3rd-level spell effect around constantly is such a trivial matter at this level. If he had spent something akin to the amount of effort that I've spent on it, then yes, it would be wrong for me to be able to sneak around him effortlessly. As it is, that should be the normal state of affairs, just like losing to Rahveon in melee should be the normal state of affairs (and is), and losing to Pilmer in spellcasting should be the normal state of affairs (and is). Stealth is a major part of what I do. It should be darn-near infallible against people that throw a cheap item at the problem and call it a day.
Really? Care to name that reason? As I read it, being completely detection-proof by someone is a Will save, and being undetectable by a given faculty that any number of creatures could possess is not, as seen in invisibility (sight), pass without trace (scent and tracking), mind blank (any divination you care to name), undetectable alignment (alignment detection), and Nystul's magic aura (aura detection). All of these are analogous to what I have in mind; none allow saves (except against a target unwilling to be protected, of course).
As you can see, I'm basically tricked out for this sort of thing, spell-wise; I have all of the above spells save mind blank (and I have some other spells that cover that function almost as well). Given the obvious track my "magical researches" (or what have you) have taken, it seems quite odd to have this gaping hole in my magical bag of tricks. Surely you would acknowledge that blindsight and its cousins are at least as common and worth worrying about as alignment detection?
Ferrix - I'll change it back to slots if you would like. I prefer this way for ease of use, but I wouldn't want to infringe on your perceived advantages in the party, especially when you've gone out of your way to extend me the same courtesy.
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I did not approve spell points from UA, sorry I didn't catch that earlier Kelleris, please change them back to slots.
If you want to make a "Blind all senses," spell Kelleris, then I suggest you put it up on the home rules board, and also probably the spells and magic items board on the WotC boards. Maybe Monte Cook's message boards as well. I would want a lot of opinions from knowledgeable people before allowing such a thing into my game.
Kelleris
Explorer
Okay. Just to be clear, I didn't want "all senses", I just wanted blindsight, blindsense, and tremorsense. I would still be perfectly visible to sight, give off a smell of some sort, glow with the requisite auras, be audible when moving or speaking, and so forth. It's just that I have something to deal with all of those other things (magic or mundane), except for this one. It seemed rather an odd exception to make, given how much more likely I am to run across these abilities than someone trying to find me through my alignment aura or something.
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Rikandur Azebol
First Post
Yuck ! You are all complaining too much for my liking, guys.
How avoid Tremorsense ? Fly, for Christ's sake ! Tsunami have Blindsense 15' for You information.
And how deal wit all this detection things ? Be faster. Look at my character, she isn't as good at crushing people like Rhveon, but with hit and run tactics she MAY win.
For example, beyond the range of Blind/Tremor/Whatever senses and sights. You are almost undetectable. Use spells like Expeditious Retreat, Haste and Boots of Swiftness ... and You may be able to charge in suprise round, slice opponent with Uber-Detector-sense and flee beyond his range of detection before he would have chance of reckognising that something hurted him. Stay hidden out of the range, and laugh at their more conventional searching attempts. ![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
Cannot walk trough the door ? Walk trough the window, that's rouges way.
How avoid Tremorsense ? Fly, for Christ's sake ! Tsunami have Blindsense 15' for You information.
And how deal wit all this detection things ? Be faster. Look at my character, she isn't as good at crushing people like Rhveon, but with hit and run tactics she MAY win.
For example, beyond the range of Blind/Tremor/Whatever senses and sights. You are almost undetectable. Use spells like Expeditious Retreat, Haste and Boots of Swiftness ... and You may be able to charge in suprise round, slice opponent with Uber-Detector-sense and flee beyond his range of detection before he would have chance of reckognising that something hurted him. Stay hidden out of the range, and laugh at their more conventional searching attempts.
Cannot walk trough the door ? Walk trough the window, that's rouges way.
Regardless of whether the spell is possible, I see two problems here:
1) Not really bardic (or at least the knowledge/musical bard that I think of, but of course that is just my opinion)
2) adding things to characters after the game has already started is what I would consider bad form.
Now if you want to commission some wizard to craft some item for you, I would say hey great, assuming (and it is a big assumption) that the spell is even possible.
1) Not really bardic (or at least the knowledge/musical bard that I think of, but of course that is just my opinion)
2) adding things to characters after the game has already started is what I would consider bad form.
Now if you want to commission some wizard to craft some item for you, I would say hey great, assuming (and it is a big assumption) that the spell is even possible.
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