[OOC] The Endless Falls Character Discussion Thread

[Kelleris]

Rikandur - Well, it would probably be reasonable for you to keep your current bonuses. I think your position as the guy with the worst saves will remain secure. I don't know where that bit about bullet points came from, though. They are eminently suited to this sort of discussion...

Besides, Wrahn started it!

And I have been making a point to post at least once daily, you know. The game is probably slow because I introduced a need for mad rhymin' skills, as part of my nefarious plot to make you so sick of creative presentations that everyone will start using bullet points exclusively.

Wrahn - You know what? I was going to respond to your comments, but in light of your utter obstinance on everything I have suggested, I think you have demonstrated yourself unwilling to compromise. Instead of proposing a compromise solution, as I have repeatedly asked you to do, you argue against everything I say regardless of whether it is really materially affecting you or not and "helpfully" reread my character sheet for errors every time I do bring up something.

That's only at 2nd level, jump to 30th level and you are going to have just as much disparity if not more.

Yeah, that's kinda my point, and kinda not. Half of my point is that certain people have saves that are completely, across the board, better than other people, creating a difficult situation for the DM. The things that challenge some people's Fort saves don't even involve a meaningful d20 roll for other people. Likewise, I agree with you about the save disparity. However, I think that this is something we can pretty easily self-regulate to correct, in the interests of having a more fun game. Since this idea is so alien to everyone that they refuse even to propose some acceptable compromise alternative, go ahead and forget I said anything.

Think I'm misjudging your intent in arguing the way you have? Fine. The ball is in your court. Prove me wrong.

This is why this thread is a bad idea. Surely you don't mean to imply that by following the easy to read and understand rules I that I am cheating. I could draw offense to that.

They are guidelines, for the love of all that is good and holy. Not rules! And even if they were rules, so was the bag of rats in 3.0, and that didn't make it a good idea. I seem to be the only one that thinks so, but I'll go ahead and say it again: just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

Why don't we try looking at how much an item is worth, for a change, instead of all this mathematical hair-splitting?

 

[Kelleris]

And just to show that I'm serious about compromising, and because it is evidently bothering you, Wrahn, I am dropping Practiced Spellcaster from my feat list.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Rikandur - Well, it would probably be reasonable for you to keep your current bonuses. I think your position as the guy with the worst saves will remain secure. I don't know where that bit about bullet points came from, though. They are eminently suited to this sort of discussion...

Besides, Wrahn started it!

Stubborn You are.
Och, where from bit about bullet points ? I, personally, like exagerate descriptions followed by bullet point explaination. First to make me marvel about creativity of the writer, second to avoid confusion.

I have nasty sense of humour ... I'm afraid. More than just fev people stopped talking with me after one, innocent from my point of view, joke. :\

And I have been making a point to post at least once daily, you know. The game is probably slow because I introduced a need for mad rhymin' skills, as part of my nefarious plot to make you so sick of creative presentations that everyone will start using bullet points exclusively.

Rhyming is fun ! And Players may be delayed because they have ... You know, other activites ... I dare even to say, life ?

Not to mention Isida, unfortunately She have right to have her own life too.

How You like sample of my irony ? And that just warming up.

 

[Kelleris]

By where that bit about the bullet points came from, I simply meant that it seemed kinda random, not immediately connecting with what we were talking about.

I'm only talking about myself as far as posting goes. *waves hand* Ignore the extraneous speculation (and that's all it is). It wasn't really meant as an occasion for sarcasm, especially since I was actually feeling a little bad about forcing everyone to rhyme. I recommend blank verse instead.

Right. As far as the rant earlier goes, I dearly wish for a bit less of this:

A: "You are using something that is cheesy/underpriced/flat-out broken/just stupid.
B: "No I'm not. S, H, and L say so."
A: "Yes you are. Q, G, and C say so."
B: "No I'm not. W, J, and Y say so."
[Continue until vomiting or complete frustration is induced.]

And a bit more of this:

A: "You are using a spell (say) that is cheesy/underpriced/flat-out broken/just stupid. It bothers me because it belittles my character/makes the game less interesting/annoys the dickens out of me/whatever."
B: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, A, but I really want to keep whatever-it-is. How about if I rejiggered the ability/added a weakness/came up with a less bothersome means to the same end/admit that I have some responsibility to other players. I will moderate what I want by admiting that it isn't all that important/bumping the spell level by 1/recosting the item/asking what you would prefer."
A: "Oh, okay. That is a reasonable compromise. I feel better and am happy to play with your character without reservations now."
B: "Good. I care about my fellow players and therefore want to address their concerns instead of arguing them into the ground/pestering the DM/finding something to counterattack with/annoying the heck out of them whenever they see my avatar."

And, for what it's worth, it wasn't the saving throw issue that finally aggravated me to ribbons. It was Wrahn and Ferrix's discussion of item costs, which including no offers of compromise, asking of how much the items are actually worth rather than what some simple guidelines supposedly dictate, or acknowledgement that (yes, again, it's important) just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. And then it ended with a (tongue-in-cheek) agreement that, obviously, Sigrun was oozing gouda to an insufficient degree.

Now, I've been more ambivalent than I should have been about compromising, so I'm not even going to do point-by-point arguments anymore. If that's all you care to do, then just tell me what you don't like about Arion and why (and purely mechanical quibbles will fall on deaf ears). I will change it so that it addresses your concerns and doesn't compromise mine too much, and then I will have fulfilled my duties to my fellow players as far as character creation is concerned. Assuming you aren't willing to deal likewise with me, I'm out of this thread with no intention of coming back.

Be advised that I will then take whatever IC opportunities present themselves to make fun of your character, as a way of appeasing my disgruntled ego. And I will get Rahveon back for that cross-dresser comment a hundredfold!

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Sarcasm ? Sigh ... What I dislike about Arion ? Where to begin ...
I wouldn't play Arion. Why ? Guy confuses me extremly, and I cannot create imaginative visage of him. That's all, my personal feelings, from one point I thought that he was ninja type ... and You say he isn't. That confused me. I guess that sword Akumanga have similiar troubles while convicing Arion to do "the neccesary".

For example I have very clear picture of Tsunami, imagine Sophita from "Soul Edge" a game that killed me three pads fev years ago. And mix it with nymph picture from MM 3.5 . Of course put the Nymph into the armour ...

And I could draw picture of Wrahn's elefant man. Ther was elefantine monster in "Blade & Sword", a game from China ... probably. Diablo-like. Simply change of armour for full plate mail is piece of cake.

Similiar tale I could tell about most other characters, where Ferrix's psion is simply bald Gandalf, for me. Never get used to this whole psionic stuff.

And about Arion ? Once I see ninja with murder in his eyes, other time I see bardlike guy ... playing flute. First is asian, second is english. :\

Uff, now Kelleris, what do You dislike in Tsunami ?

 

[Wrahn]

Kelleris-

Worth is a term so highly subjective that it loses meaning. The rules are an objective way of determining worth (well at least partially). Arguing with rules actually allows you to make a coherent arguement without falling back to the emotional.

The thing I don't understand about your "Your high saves makes me feel less valuable" is Rahveon was posted first and hasn't changed significantly statistically. If you thought that Rahveon's saves were going to make you feel weak and ineffective, why did you make Arion's saves so low?

I have expressed my feelings on this and even my willingness to compromise, when we have something more concrete to look at. But right now, I don't think we have enough to make an objective opinion. Beyond that I do not find myself moved by your argument.

As a side note: Solarian is OneAboveAll's character, what he wants to do with it is up to him.

 

[perivas]

You were comparing them to the "average" 30th level caster, of which there is no such thing. I could use the existing rules to make something whose save is beyond any of us.

I heavily doubt that. I studied the problem closely and tried my best to create the highest possible save requirement. In the end, I came to the conclusion that someone who forces the others to make a save is worthless 90+% of the time considering some players' saves. I started with a black ethergaunt with an INT bonus of +20 and 17 levels of casting and added items, Red Wizard levels and feats to push it to the max...and it still wasn't enough. I'm not asking you to change any saves...I couldn't care less. I'm just pointing out that the current saves on some characters are for all practical purposes impossible to overcome for a ECL 30 character.

And just to show that I'm serious about compromising, and because it is evidently bothering you, Wrahn, I am dropping Practiced Spellcaster from my feat list.

I have that feat too, I believe...and will remove it as well. Now, what to pick, what to pick, what to pick...hmm?

 

[Wrahn]

I heavily doubt that. I studied the problem closely and tried my best to create the highest possible save requirement. In the end, I came to the conclusion that someone who forces the others to make a save is worthless 90+% of the time considering some players' saves. I started with a black ethergaunt with an INT bonus of +20 and 17 levels of casting and added items, Red Wizard levels and feats to push it to the max...and it still wasn't enough. I'm not asking you to change any saves...I couldn't care less. I'm just pointing out that the current saves on some characters are for all practical purposes impossible to overcome for a ECL 30 character.

Without going over CR 30 and without playing around with templates, I can reach 54 DC playing with non-exotic feats and items. That is just using the SRD. Throw in Epic spells (which have been banned from us, but not neccesarily from Isida) and that number goes through the roof.

That is with about 5 minutes of paging through the SRD too. Don't worry, their are plenty of ways to hose us over "legal-like" without resorting to going to the dieties and demigods. And Isida has given us more than ample reason to believe she is going there.

And I suppose yes, practice spell caster bothers me, Isida asked us to remain within certain books. If we had had access to it, I may have considered going a different direction.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Without going over CR 30 and without playing around with templates, I can reach 54 DC playing with non-exotic feats and items. That is just using the SRD. Throw in Epic spells (which have been banned from us, but not neccesarily from Isida) and that number goes through the roof.

Could You hint to me something ? In tabletop game My wizard is quickly advancing and I want to prepare this evil bastard against demons, for he is stuck up in the Abyss, with ordinary guys he can handle his way ... but Epic level. I'm sorry for shameless nagging, but I need to buff up his spell DC. What items/feats would You propose ? And I'm talking about direct damage spellslinger with a lot of customised energetic "missiles". Acid thunder etc. Why waste feat when You can research it ?

 

[Wrahn]

I suppose I should ask how high do you think this game is going to go. There are things you can do that will not see fruition until around 30th level that are less effective at lower levels.

Automatically quickened spells + Multispell as many times as you can get it, is obnoxiously powerful with or without DCs. Improved Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity are good ones to get the DC of that special spell up. Certainly get your intelligence up and you may want to look into school specialization feats, though I am not a huge fan of those.

As far as items go, Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might has an amulet of the arcanist which grants +2 to spell DCs for 50k. There is also a spell which increases the DCs of spells cast afterwards called Greater Magic Flow at 4th level. (Though I would not allow them to stack, they are both unnamed bonuses so technically they should)

I think also in that book there is a Holy Lace feat which increases the DC of spells versus evil by +1.

I think the most important thing to remember is concentrate on weaknesses, big fighter type, try Will saves, caster type, reflex, roguish, fortitude. Be flexible. Sometimes you will not be able to raise you DCs high enough, in which case summon things, always keep Maze and Forcecage memorized. Meteor Swarm and quickened true strike is another method of bringing the pain.

The last is just accept you will sometimes be unable to have a save high enough and just unload. Even taking half damage some of these spells are going to be more damage than most want to deal with. Or keep throwing instant kill spells at them until they roll low enough.