Open Grave Excerpt: Rituals and Artifacts

[Runestar]

err, animate dead-type spells have always been tightly controlled in D&D.

I take it you haven't seen the dread necromaner class from heroes of horror?

I had always wanted to play a party consisting of a necromancer and his undead cohorts, but there has never been viable guidelines for playing undead monster PCs...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Agreed.

It doesn't look more evil than using bodies for medicine school, unless you use it for evil acts.

Depends. The goal of medicine school is to teach people to be doctors and help people. If you use your animated undead just to make your breakfast and do the heavy lifting for you, I am not convinced this can compare.

And it also matters what raising undead does to the person of the origin body. In some variations, it could be that you are forcing the persons spirit into submission, or get ahold of its soul so it can't go to wherever soulds are supposed to go, instead forcing it into slavery to you.

In 3E, necromancy was always associated with evil, suggesting that you did some harm to the target of your necromancy (be it by enslaving its soul, destroying its spirit, or whatever we can come up with.) The only exceptions where something like the "Deathless" from Eberron - but those basically became undead on their own volition (and unlike a Lich, didn't have to do some unspeakable acts of evil to become undead). (And strictly speaking, they weren't undead either. Deathless was its own creature type).

Whether necromancy is inherently evil or just a tool that can be used for good or evil depends on how you define it in your game world.

 

[Rechan]

Depends. The goal of medicine school is to teach people to be doctors and help people. If you use your animated undead just to make your breakfast and do the heavy lifting for you, I am not convinced this can compare.

Or you're from a culture where the priest makes honored warriors into zombies, so that they can always protect the village, or the sacred areas. Such a fate being highly praised. Or that the undead serve as the protective force - even the weakest old man, in death, is just as strong as the next, so all bodies have use.

Or necromancers are literally medicine students; seeking to understand the body, and ways to beat death. See: Hollowfaust (Scarred Lands); city of Neutral/Good Necromancers.

Or necromancers are slayers of the dead/white necromancers.

And it also matters what raising undead does to the person of the origin body. In some variations, it could be that you are forcing the persons spirit into submission, or get ahold of its soul so it can't go to wherever soulds are supposed to go, instead forcing it into slavery to you.

I'm pretty sure that in 4e, zombies have no soul. They're just a body, and I think an animus (The primal spark). What you are describing is more like a juju zombie.

In general, in 2e-3e, I got the impression that PCs raising the dead was for the sole purpose of setting off traps.

Besides, animating dead in 3e was the sucker's way. All you have to do is play a neutral cleric, pick negative energy for your spontaneous healing, and get 'Rebuke' instead of 'Turn' undead. Now, use your turn attempts to make undead follow your orders. Tada!

 

[Rechan]

I take it you haven't seen the dread necromaner class from heroes of horror?

Still tightly controlled; the DN had 'Animate dead' as a 5th level spell.

 

[Runestar]

Still tightly controlled; the DN had 'Animate dead' as a 5th level spell.

4th actually. Though if you want, a 5th lv cleric could animate up to 20HD of undead.

What is your definition of "tightly controlled" anyways.

 

[F5]

Keep in mind how specialized 4E monsters are. This doesn't look to me like the 4E Animate Dead. This is basically a de-powered, necromantic version of Unseen Servant.

It's not saying that you can only ever have one zombie under your control. It's saying that you can only have one zombie BUTLER under your control. There will be other rituals that create zombie cooks, zombie toymakers, zombie mounts, etc.

Oh, and probably an epic-level ritual that raises a rampaging zombie horde army, too.

 

[Rechan]

4th actually. Though if you want, a 5th lv cleric could animate up to 20HD of undead.

What is your definition of "tightly controlled" anyways.

Kept out of the hands of all but clerics until it's pretty high up there.

Also, the component cost is rather hard, if you want to build your army.

 

[Runestar]

Also, is there a practical aspect to having your own zombie butler? They certainly went out of their way to ensure that it cannot contribute meaningfully in combat (though I am sure some enterprising minds will find a way to work around its limitations), but it seems that it will likely be an inadvertent casualty in any fight sporting AoEs (eg: being caught in a dragon's breath weapon, a fireball etc). I am not sure I like the prospect of possibly having to renew my zombie minion every other battle...

An extra pack mule of sorts?

 

[AllisterH]

That isn't correct.

OD&D: Roll 1d6 per level above 8th. That's how many skeletons or zombies you get per casting of the spell, assuming available corpses. The spell may be cast as often as it is memorized, with no upper limit. Undead last until dispelled or destroyed.

Classic: You get 1 HD of skeletons or zombies per caster level. The spell may be cast as often as it is memorized, with no upper limit. Undead last until dispelled or destroyed.

AD&D: You get 1 skeleton or 1 zombie per caster level. The spell may be cast as often as it is memorized, with no upper limit. Undead last until dispelled or destroyed.

4E: You get 1 zombie. It costs a lot of money. You can never ever have more than 1 zombie.

Big, big difference.

You're forgetting one major aspect of the rules for spells. The fact that in pre 3E, there was no certainity you would HAVE the spell. This affects the game world such that in pre 3E, it was safe to assume that only a few spellcasters could actually cast the spell.

Whereas in 3e/4e, every tom dick and harry potter will know this spell as all it costs them is a chunk of change...

 

[Spatula]

You're forgetting one major aspect of the rules for spells. The fact that in pre 3E, there was no certainity you would HAVE the spell. This affects the game world such that in pre 3E, it was safe to assume that only a few spellcasters could actually cast the spell.

Whereas in 3e/4e, every tom dick and harry potter will know this spell as all it costs them is a chunk of change...

Well, that's true of pre-3e mages, but any 5th level cleric has the spell. The 1e PHB doesn't even assume that using it is evil, simply noting that a good cleric should have a very good reason for using it. Wannabe-necromancer mages were further limited in that they had to be 9th level in order to cast animate dead, and the spell is rather weak for that level. The game just doesn't support necromancer wizard types very well, outside of some 3e PrCs. 3e lowered the spell down to 4th level for wiz/sorc but then added in the expensive material component and the control limits (that I erronously thought were in older editions).